Mechanical advice? Well, OK, you need an engine rebuild. If you’re not looking for who has ultimate responsibility, then it’s completely irrelevant why the two shops contradicted each other. I know you aren’t looking to “stick it to Honda,” but it does seem you’re looking to point a finger in some direction.
The bearings will show scarring from oil starvation. Looking at those bearings will not tell you WHY there was a loss of oil.
I’ve seen cross threaded oil plugs (slow leaks), oil plug gasket failure and oil filter gasket failure (catastrophic engine failure), and a dozen other causes of oil loss.
People on an internet forum (like me) will always be speculating, but the mechanics who have the vehicle in front of them will ALWAYS have a better idea of what went wrong. It sounds to me that the real cause will never be clear since it has already been through two hands and neither wants to take responsibility.
While I am not a mechanic and I do work on my one cars, one thing I do know is that you never rely on the oil pressure light. If it come on your engine is basically done. The oil level needs to be checked at least every other fill up.
When it comes to the engine, I would want to see what they are talking about. If they won’t let you see the bearings ect. then something screwy is going on!!
I agree with M3chef, you have all the answers you need.
A blown engine can occur with little or no oil. While the shops may disagree as to which it is, they would both agree that little or no oil can have the same result. So it doesn’t matter which it is.
It’s really not your fault. But it is also clear that Honda is not at fault either, nor the Honda dealer. It’s been 3 months since the oil change, so while the oil change shop MIGHT be at fault, enough time has transpired that you aren’t going to be able to get them to pay for the engine rebuild.
This is one of those situations where it might not be your fault - and it might be someone else’s - but in the end, you’re going to be the one who has to pay for it - both monetarily and psychologically. I think you need to move on for the sake of your own sanity. BTW all this diagnosis is costing money - and at some point the piper must be paid.
I have seen this many times in my career. Alot of times when a vehicle is shut down with lack of oil, the bearings seize on the crankshaft due to the lack of cooling properties the oil also supplies.This also happens when a camshaft is riding on aluminum saddles in the head. No metal shavings will appear. Alot of high revving four cylinder motors go thru a quart of oil every 600-800 miles.Worn valve guides,worn rings,leaks all contribute to this oil loss. I had a flight instructor who always made me switch on the aircraft and check the fuel gauge.Afterwards he would have me switch off the aircraft, climb out of the cockpit and physically check the fuel level by opening the gas cap and looking for myself.
"M3chef, when the car was first towed to Honda, they said it was bone dry. The service tech put some oil in the car to see if it would start. When it didn’t, they informed me it was a blown engine due to oil starvation (they checked the dipstick first thing I guess) and then told me whoever changed the oil last is responsible because of the drain plug. BUT-when the independent shop got the car, they said they drained 1.5 quarts out of it. When I called Honda back, the Tech swore up and down he drained it dry before sending to the shop. What do I do about that? I just pretty much chalked it up to “its irrelevant”…I’ll never know.
No metal shavings was from a visual inspection.
And AGAIN! I’m not asking how to stick it to Honda. I’m asking for mechanical advice from the questions in my post."
Somewhere in an earlier post you said the HONDA Dealership found 1.5 qts of oil still in the engine… Now it’s “Bone Dry”…Then it gets towed to another shop. There is WAY to much conflicting information being posted by YOU for us to offer any meaningful mechanical advise. Bone Dry = Junk Engine. I would replace the complete engine with a salvage yard unit. You should be able to buy such an engine cheaper than hiring a lawyer to take whoever changed your oil to court, where you would probably lose…
Let’s assume that there was no loss of oil pressure to BELOW THE MINIMUM SPECIFIED, and that THAT was the reason the driver didn’t see a low oil pressure warning light; nor, hear the engine make distressed sounds before it expired.
The low oil pressure WARNING light is designed to come on when the oil pressure drops below about 8 psi. This value is for ANY rpm and engine load; even though the minimum oil pressure specifications are 10 psi at idle, and 71 psi at 3,000 rpm. The oil pressure sensor (sender; switch) STILL operates at 8 psi.
The camshaft and valve train are adversely affected by low oil pressure, and may be the first alert to low oil pressure. If the valve lifters are hydraulic, they will tell you by their clicking and clacking. Other types of valve trains may be quieter in their protest.
If the oil pressure should be, say, 10 psi at 2,000 rpm (45 mph?), the low oil pressure light WOULD NOT COME ON; but, engine damage could result.
ADDED Later: ALL parts of the engine would be damaged, to a greater or lesser degree, top and bottom, by low oil pressure / volume. OK?
“The camshaft and valve train are the first parts of the engine which are adversely affected by low oil pressure. If the oil pressure should be 10 psi at 2,000 rpm (45 mph?), the low oil pressure light WOULD NOT COME ON; but, engine damage could result.”
I disagree…I feel the valve gear is the last area to be damaged by oil starvation, and by the time any damage is done here, the ROD BEARINGS, the MOST sensitive plain bearings in the engine, would have failed.
Sorry all,
Its gotten so tangled its hard to remember who said what.
The independent shop said they drained 1.5 out when they received it, which is why they were contesting Honda’s diagnosis of oil starvation. The shop got me on the mindset that if Honda says the engine died of oil starvation, why wasn’t there any oil indicators lit up across my dashboard. Well, now thanks to the forum, I understand why.
Today’s update:
The shop called and said they didn’t want to tear out the motor because it would keep their bay tied up for what could be days and days. So I called Honda back to see how long it would take to send out an inspector once the bearings and cam were ready for inspection.
I talked to a totally different person this time and basically, what Honda is now looking for is cause of failure. They agree the 1st teardown didn’t show any oil starvation, now they just want to know what DID cause engine failure. The rep I talked to said, “The shop needs to tell US what went wrong so we can make sure it doesn’t happen to any of the new models coming out” This Toyota thing has everyone paranoid!!
So I called the shop back and told him we don’t need to PROVE the engine didn’t die from oil starvation, we just need to figure out what happened once and for all. Honda is looking for the shop to show their inspectors what the problem was.
If I owned the independent shop where your Pilot now is sitting, I would push it outside and tell you to come and get it. Nothing good is going to happen from now on. It’s just one big Tar Baby and everyone who touches it is going to get sucked into a mess they don’t want or need. Good Luck Jacinta…
I still think as long as the engine had oil pressure, the engine should not be damaged. I am not convinced it is damaged. The timing belt slipped and caused the engine not to start. As has been suggested before on here, a new belt and new oil just might fix the thing.
I think Jacinta needs to focus on the fact that her husband checked the oil 2 weeks before the failure and the level was fine. There had to be a failure somewhere that caused 3 to 4 qts of oil to leak out of the engine quickly, which in turn, caused engine failure due to oil starvation…
I guess I should clarify, apparently 2 to 4 weeks give or take since the husband checked the oil…:
'I don’t know why husbands don’t share information with their wives. Its not like I’m totally “mechanically illiterate”! I just took apart our toilet this week to extract a toy our son threw down which caused a clog! took it off the bolts and all!
anyhow, the reason I say that is because NOW the truth comes out.
My husband checked the oil week of Xmas because we were traveling for the holidays.
Anyhow, its all irrelevant now as Mountainbike said. And yes Mountainbike, I will be checking my oil more then 3k. My Facebook poll that’s currently on-going is showing oil checks at oil changes and only 1 response of monthly oil changes. That’s 22 facebook friend responses and its only been out there for an hour! IRRELEVENT I know…
So Jan. 27th was the last time. Maybe its possible the plug came loose over the last few weeks. Who knows.
Right now, the independent shop is taking it apart to expose the bearings and the crank. They have been instructed to take the cam out.
Anything else? I’m asking this board because Honda failed to tell the Auto Shop to do this in the first place, so now its Phase 2. I don’t want there to be a phase 3 or 4 if we can help it. Any comments?’
Did we conclude that the engine is non-interference? belt slip on interference engine is, well “not good” and this is a Honda. I can’t believe I am extending this thread.
Ask hubby HOW he checked engine oil level. Did he check with the engine not running? With the engine running? Hot engine? Engine just shut off? Did he wipe the dip until he could be sure that the area above the oil level mark was dry? Etc? HOW?
Agreed this is not generational. My sister is younger than me, she thinks the car should tell her when anything is wrong and she should never have to check fluids -- even when I told her she had a massive antifreeze leak. My mom is much older and has the same attitude. This is absolutely not a generational thing at all.
UPDATE: The Independent Shop broke it down as instructed by Honda Care. The shop could still not find the cause of failure, the Honda Inspector went over every inch with the mechanic and confirmed the mechanics findings.
Honda has agreed to pay for any broken part, not a new engine. So they will cover the timing belt, any bent valves or camshaft replacement heads etc.
Thank you to everyone on the board who helped me through this difficult time and added VALUE to the discussion. Keep it up!