Boy I sure miss good old R-12

Well there’s other that agree with me. R12 was cheap, non toxic, and plentiful. We used it in A/c Systems, air horns, aerosol cans ect… then Dupont created the Ozone Crisis so the could invent a solution to that problem, Hence R134A.

Unfortunately 134A was not as efficient as R12.

The man in the video is making a training video so I have to wonder if he really agrees that a gas that is heavier than air somehow magically made it miles up into the atmosphere, or if he is just going along with the narrative about R12 for Training sake.

I have contacted him and invited him to come explain his point of view on r12 here.

I believe he does mainly residential and commercial AC work, but r12 is r12, whether its in a car or a window unit.

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You do know this is nonsense, right? That they have the composition of the stratosphere, that it shows the rising levels of these gases over time, that ‘heavy’ means nothing when it comes to a fully mixed volume of gas like the atmosphere, right?

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That’s one big conspiracy theory. Show me the proof.

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If that was the case, then all we’d be breathing is nitrogen. Air is a mix of mostly nitrogen and Oxygen…but you can find other much lighter gases like argon and carbon monoxide.

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I thought I posted this, but can’t find it. I apologize if it is a duplicate.

If you want true science on R-12 do it yourself. Find a nice limestone rock, whatever size you can move. Take it to a swimming pool, hold it so the top of it is even with the water in the pool. Then, let go.

Does it bounce around up there destroying pool ions? No, it goes down, down, down, and when it hits the bottom it stays there. Check it very day for a year. Does it ever come back up? No, it went down and it stays there.

Specific gravity of limestone in water is only 2.5. Specific gravity of R-12 in “air” is 4.3 which is 72% higher sp.g. It goes down faster and stays harder. The real danger of R-12 was spelunkers were going to suffocate in deep caves where R-12 eventually ended up. [sarcasm]

Also, I don’t remember anyone ever claiming they actually found an R-12 molecule in the ionosphere. I wouldn’t believe them if they say they did, because the stuff is simply too heavy. And, it is incredibly inert, so it can’t form complex compounds and grow wings to it can fly away. Diffusion is simply mumbo-jumbo to confuse gullible people.

In the 90’s, estimates of cost to replace R-12 for the planet was estimated to run around one trillion dollars. That did not include increased energy costs for less efficient R-134A, forever. But, hey, the patent was expiring and du Pont needed something new at a higher price. They got it. Thanks for helping them, guys.

I worked in a large electronics plant. We had big ‘chambers’ we called them, each producing enough cooling to cook as many as 8 full sized houses, just to heat and cool electronics to make sure it would work at the wide temperatures military electronics experience. The compressors were gigantic and required special handling tools to move and install. They ran on 440V.

How many such chambers? I have no idea. If you told me several hundred, I would believe it. Not too many more, and not too many less. There was a lot of R-12 in those buildings.

The first time I saw a refrigeration guy open a system, the gas came hissing out. I freaked out. He laughed. And, eventually I realized he was correct. At no time could you smell it on the shop floor.

The small amounts of R-12 used in cars did not cause any problems to anyone or anything. The refrigeration guys knew when they soldered tubing on R-12 systems, they had to pump them out first, they were well aware of phosgene gas coming from R-12 with propane soldering torches. No, that’s wrong. Early in my time in that company, we did have a refrigeration worker get a dose of phosgene one day, so procedures were changed for more training.

It is extremely rare that a/c R-12 would hit over 1,000 degrees in a car wreck situation. If the system ruptures, the gas will soon enough hit the ground and move away.

All the people who worked with R-12 knew instantly that R-12 destroying the ionosphere was pure bunkum. But, with bullying they got it outlawed, the same bullying being used to try to ram non-existent global warming through. Enough already.

We used other types of freon, In one area, they had tanks of it, not R-12, in open tanks, with only a simply metal lid over the top for cleaning circuit boards. It smelled up the whole area, and made people feel sick. Our illustrious safety director told us the stuff would not harm you, if you took a bath in it. I called the number on the safety sheet, using my own phone card so they couldn’t ding me for unauthorized phone charges. I ended up talking to the CEO of the division which made the stuff. He did not ask my job title, fortunately. :smiley: After he understood the issue, he said, “Our policy is when you can smell it, you are getting too much.”

I wrote up a report on my phone call and massively distributed it, including to the union officials. Someone came and told me a higher-up had said I was supposed to be working, not calling people on the phone. I said to tell him to come down and we could examine my official job description, which did include liaison with customers and vendors. He did not come down, and in a few days, the open tank was gone.

There is also no global warming. If you want to believe in both things, I guess you can, no matter how false they are. But, it is unlikely R-12 will be un-outlawed no matter what the truth is.

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Theory that is not supported by facts.

https://www.wou.edu/~avorder/Refrigeration.htm

That pool isn’t even close to what our atmosphere is like. The air I breath today in NH was air that was probably over Colorado a few days ago. That’s a very bad analogy.

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Sorry, you’re wrong. Not my opinion, a fact. Here is the concentration of CFCs in the stratosphere over time. Ground level concentrations are the dashed curves, stratospheric concentrations the solid curves.:

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Here’s a better analogy - pour salt in your pool, stir up the pool, and let it sit. Does the salt in solution (HEAVY) sink to the bottom? Nope. The atmosphere is constantly stirred, mixing everything up. Any gasses released into the atmosphere, if they’re long-lived, like CFCs, end up distributed throughout the atmosphere.

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For those interested in understanding how CFCs get up to the stratosphere, here’s a good explanation:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/chlorofluorocarbons-cfcs/

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Yes, yes you CFC haters are right. R12 destroyed the earth. Ok. Since R12 has been banned now lets move on to the next problem.

Time to give up your booze boys and gals, Its DESTROYING THE EARTH!

http://www.dramming.com/2014/08/22/the-environmental-impact-of-alcoholic-drinks-production/

So we can run a country on the energy it takes to make your alkihol, so we solve some energy issues, global warming issues, and also the drunk driving issue.

You all took our r12 and now we will take your alkihol.

R12 WAS THE BEST DARN REFRIGERANT KNOW TO MANKIND. EFFICIENT, CHEAP, AND NON TOXIC. PERIOD. Maybe it hurt mother earth, maybe it didnt, but back in the good old days my AC was cold, My airhorn was loud, and my hairspray came out like it was shooting out of a fire hose.

God Bless R12, The miracle solvent of the 20th century.

Now yall can put your money where your mouth is, give up your earth destroying booze.

http://www.history-magazine.com/refrig.html

Ozone is naturally occurring, we will never run out of ozone.

Actually, we would all be breathing pure argon and carbon dioxide, it’s heavier than nitrogen and oxygen. Nitrogen is slightly lighter than oxygen, water vapor is one of the lightest gasses in the atmosphere.
However, the composition of the atmosphere does not change significantly with altitude. It’s about 20% oxygen at sea level and about 20% oxygen at the top of Mt. Everest. Even at the altitudes that U-2 and SR-71 spy planes fly, it’s about 20% oxygen.

R12 was a problem, r14 or whatever works for me, sure throw scientific research under the bus for being scientific.

The unparalleled cooperation has had a major impact.

“If we had just kept letting CFCs increase at a pretty nominal rate, characteristic of the 1970s, the decreased ozone levels of the hole would have eventually covered the entire planet,” said atmospheric physicist Paul Newman of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center.

The specific gravity of pure alcohol is 0.787 and the specific gravity of water is 1.000. When you tap a keg of beer, does the weak beer come out first and the strong beer come out last?
When you fill you car’s tank with gas, do the heavier factions like octane and nonane sink to the bottom while the pentane and butane floats to the top.
Or do these mixtures remain homogeneous even when stored for a long time?

Air is a solution of different gasses and it behaves like a solution just like alcohol and water are a solution, you cannot separate water from alcohol using a centrifuge. You can separate emulsions that way. Smoke in air is an emulsion, so are fog and clouds. Milk is another emulsion.
You can separate the butterfat from milk using a centrifuge, but the whey will still have the same dissolved sugar and lactic acid percentages as it had before.

If only you’d practice what you preached…

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Irlandes, I have a lot of respect for You. You offer a lot of good inputs and a great deal of humour to this site.
I have worked with CFC gasses for a number of years, assembling heat-pumps (a refrigerator in reverse, you could say). Safety measures when charging the pump with freon was immense, 'cause if you inhaled the freon (R12, R22, and 134A were what we used), you could drown as the freon would react in your lungs and if the freon were exposed to open fire, it was even worse.

Question:

If I take this as the truth, as the R12 would displace the air (oxygen). How come mice, worms, all kinds of creatures living low to the ground have not been suffocated by now. Yes, I noted the sarcasm.

I think a lot of people should read the following links:

http://www.theozonehole.com/cfc.htm

WhoSaidRick, Go have a good cigar, drink a bottle of boze of Your choice, go to sleep in Your, hopefully, comfortable king size bed so the rest of us can enjoy the rest of our life in a good mood.

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A heat pump in reverse is a closed cycle steam engine, or Rankine cycle engine if you prefer since the working fluid of a steam engine does not have to be water. A heat pump takes in mechanical energy to “lift” heat from a cold place to a hot place. A Rankine cycle engine produces mechanical energy by allowing heat to “fall” from a hot place to a cold place.
Heat pumps have hot condensers and cold evaporators.
Steam engines have hot evaporators and cold condensers.

Heat pumps can not easily be converted into steam engines because you need a feedwater pump to pump the liquid from the low pressure condenser to the high pressure evaporator. Since the evaporator of a heat pump is the low pressure end, all you need is an expansion valve or capillary tube to take the liquid from the condenser to the evaporator.

I have often wondered if refridgeration based on the Brayton cycle could be practical. The working fluid would be the air being chilled itself.
The Brayton cycle has long been used in turbo jet engines. To use it as a heat pump, after the compressor compressed the air, instead of burning fuel in it to heat it up, a heat exchanger would cool it back to its pre-compressed temperature, then the turbine would decompress the air leaving it ice cold as it exits the exhaust while recovering a percentage of the energy needed to compress the air with a motor making up for the rest of the energy needed to compress the air.

Now if you further refined it by having a cooling stage between each stage of compression and a heating stage between each stage of expansion, the system would be even more efficient and you would have sort of a quasi Carnot cycle refriderator.

I got the idea because like many of you, I noticed that the exhaust air from a pneumatic air tool comes out ice cold. It could even be a piston compressor and expansion system with the expander recovering some of the energy needed to drive the compressor. Brayton’s original heat engine used pistons, not turbines to do the compression and expansion.

Yes: