Boy I sure miss good old R-12

Dui limits and punishment in this country are a joke. We need to do better.

We have one of the highest Dui rates per capita anywhere. 'Murica.

Make america first again!, or was that grate (as in sell only block cheese), or was that make merica green again, whatever.

1 Like

Barkydog done beat me to fact checking WhoSaidRickā€™s claim. But you also have to remember that different countries have different definitions of DUI when you compare the statistics. America is probably ā€œaverageā€ when it comes to drunk driving as the chart shows.
I measured the bars with a dial caliper and it seems the bars actually start at zero. Kudos to the creator of that graphic for not starting the bars at some high number in order to exaggerate the differences between the countries.
Also, that chart shows percentage of accidents that are alcohol related, not DUIā€™s given out. Most DUIā€™s donā€™t even involve an accident.
If America indeed does issue the most DUIā€™s, it could mean we have the drunkest drivers, or it could mean our police aggressively enforce DUI laws. Those countries with the lower DUI rates might have police that look the other way or cite drivers with charges less than DUI a lot of times. Our culture is not that much different than that of Europe after all.

2 Likes

What makes you think it is? It turns out that cold temperature matters a great deal. Since the Antarctic is much colder than the Arctic it has more depletion. The story in the mid-latitudes is different.

I recommend you start. Perhaps someone sells a CFC-enhanced cigarette.

That is really a gas that you used a dial caliper to figure the bars start at zero.

Car related, I was a cartographer for a while, and one ? thought it must be a cool job to take pictures of cars.

Now something you might enjoy, a coworker was worried putting on readers might change the scale of a drawing! Ha Ha if you get it :ghost:

Here are some ac compressors that are right up YOUR alley

From the good old days, according to YOU

I think you would be happiest with a small car with one of those compressors, running 4 lbs of R12, and youā€™d crank the ac so low, that you had to wear a winter coat inside the car, probably to the dismay of your passengers

And an ashtray full of butts, even though you donā€™t smoke, just because thatā€™s what ashtrays are for, right?

Am I on the right track . . . ?

1 Like

It never hurts to fact check the fact checkers. Thereā€™s a lot of information on the internet thatā€™s provided by people who are advancing their own agenda and bar graphs that donā€™t start at zero are a classic method of exaggerating the differences between data that are actually a statistical ties.

Iā€™d just kill this one off if it were me Carolynā€¦

3 Likes

As I remember, back in the 1970s, two types of air conditioning systems were used. In one system, the compressor cycled on and off as needed. I know my 1971 Ford Maverick had this system. I could feel the compressor cycle on and off as I drive along. I think that GM may have used a system whereby the compressor always ran when air conditioning was selected. Moving the temperature control to the warmer side would mix heat from the heater core with the cold air. This might account for the difference in the discharge air temperature.
To my way of thinking, it isnā€™t the temperature of the air coming from the vents as is how well the system can maintain a comfortable temperature in the car. The previous house I owned had a large through the wall 240 volt air conditioner that I think was rated at 15,000 BTU. This air conditioner was in the living room. The room never felt comfortable because it cycled on and.off too many times to effectively remove the humidity. The rest of the house had no air-conditioning units. Fortunately, there was a cold air return for the furnace on the floor under the unit. I bypassed the blower control switch on the furnace to distribute the cooled air , through the house. Not only were the other rooms cooler, but the.living room was much more comfortable because the compressor ran for a.longer time interval. I had poor manā€™s central air conditioning. The house was a square box of.about 1000 square feet.
I think the engineers design the system for a car to match the space to be cooled. I think that a.properly designed system for 134A works as well as a properly designed system for R-12 in a vehicle application.

Did you forget to add sarcasm?

1 Like

Here is a comparison of dangerous and less efficient 134a vs our old unloved friend r-12, a comparison by top expert Charles Fox

HC12a System Versus R134a System
By Charles Fox
(Excerpt)
Hydrocarbons are the best refrigerants for existing systems whether it is an R12 system or a R134a system and to my knowledge that has never been disputed. Hydrocarbons are non-corrosive, nontoxic, non-ozone depleting, non-global warming, and much more energy efficient than CFCā€™s or HFCā€™s. Hydrocarbons are flammable because they are LPGā€™s (Liquified Petroleum Gases): naturally occurring compounds which are safe for the environment, and safe for human health. Many LPGā€™s, including natural gas and propane, are safely used in numerous applications within homes, businesses, and motor vehicles throughout the United States and the world.

For decades, large US. industries have utilized hydrocarbons within their air conditioning and refrigeration systems, and have found them to be highly efficient and safe refrigerants. Use and acceptance of hydrocarbons in motor vehicle and commercial air conditioning and refrigeration applications within the US. has been much slower. Why is that? The refrigerant market has been controlled by the chemical industry for over 60 years and nobody was willing to buck them as long as R12 was so cheap. We used to let it go into the atmosphere rather than recover it. In the 1990ā€™s all of that changed. The industry realized that they could scare the people into believing that the sky was falling. They did a very good job. Twenty years ago practically no one knew what the term freon meant unless you worked in the industry of air conditioning or refrigeration. Now you would be hard pressed to find someone who doesnā€™t believe that it is destroying the ozone layer. Is it really? Freon (R12) is 4 to 8 times heavier than air. It holds together as a molecule for 130 years. How did it bounce up to 75,000 feet to destroy the ozone? You tell me.

R134a was to be our savior and all the money and work caused the vast majority of people to believe that including me. In 1997 I started doing some research into R134a.

What I found was almost unbelievable. R134a is extremely toxic and extremely corrosive, but that was not the worst thing that I uncovered. R134a is combustible at 351 degrees. Many people have seen cars on the side of the highway in the last few years that are totally destroyed from fire damage. Most people that read this article will not want to believe what Iā€™m saying and all I can say is that I want you to prove me wrong.

Refrigerants are fluids that change their state upon the application or removal of heat within a system and, in this act of change, absorb or release heat to or from an area or substance. Many different fluids are used as refrigerants. In recent years, the most common has been air, water, ammonia, sulfur dioxide, carbon dioxide, and methylchloride.

Today, there are three specific types of refrigerants used in refrigeration and air-conditioning systems āˆ’ (1) Chlorofluorocarbons or CFCs, such as R-11, R-12, and R-114; (2) Hydrochlorofluorocarbons or HCFCs, such as R-22 or R-123; and (3) Hydrofluorocarbons or HFCs, such as R-134a. All these refrigerants are ā€œhalogenated,ā€ which means they contain chlorine, fluorine, bromine, astatine, or iodine.

Refrigerants, such as Dichlorodifluoromethane (R-12), Monochlorodifluoromethane (R-22), and Refrigerant 502 (R-502), are called PRIMARY REFRIGERANTS because each one changes its state upon the application or absorption of heat, and, in this act of change, absorbs and extracts heat from the area or substance. The primary refrigerant is so termed because it acts directly upon the area or substance, although it may be enclosed within a system. For a primary refrigerant to cool, it must be placed in a closed system in which it can be controlled by the pressure imposed upon it. The refrigerant can then absorb at the temperature ranges desired. If a primary refrigerant were used without being controlled, it would absorb heat from most perishables and freeze them solid.

SECONDARY REFRIGERANTS are substances, such as air, water, or brine. Though hot refrigerants in themselves, they have been cooled by the primary refrigeration system; they pass over and around the areas and substances to be cooled; and they are returned with their heat load to the primary refrigeration system. Secondary refrigerants pay off where the cooling effect must be moved over a long distance and gastight lines cost too much.

Refrigerants are classified into groups. The National Refrigeration Safety Code catalogs all refrigerants into three groups āˆ’ Group I āˆ’ safest of the refrigerants, such as R-12, R-22, and R-502; Group II āˆ’ toxic and somewhat flammable, such as R-40 (Methyl chloride) and R-764 (Sulfur dioxide); Group III āˆ’ flammable refrigerants, such as R-170 (Ethane) and R-290 (Propane).

R-12 DICHLORODIFLUOROMETHANE (CCI2F2)
Dichlorodifluoromethane, commonly referred to as R-12, is colorless and odorless in concentrations of less than 20 percent by volume in air. In higher concentrations, its odor resembles that of carbon tetrachloride. It is nontoxic, noncorrosive, nonflammable, and has a boiling point of -21.7 F (-29 C) at atmospheric pressure.

WARNING: Because of its low-boiling point at atmospheric pressure, it prevents liquid R12 from contacting the eyes because of the possibility of freezing.

One hazard of R-12 as a refrigerant is the health risk should leakage of the vapor come into contact with an open flame of high temperature (about 1022 F) and be decomposed into phosgene gas, which is highly toxic. R-12 has a relatively low latent heat value, and, in smaller refrigerating machines, this is an advantage. R-12 is a stable compound capable of undergoing the physical changes without decomposition to which it is commonly subjected in service. The cylinder code color for R-12 is white.

1 Like

In order for you to realize why America has the most alcohol related deaths, you need to factor in a few important items.

  1. America is huge and everybody owns cars and the highway and road network is immense. So, we have created the infrastructure for us to easily drive to bars and restaurants.

  2. Americans have the money where most families have at least one car and many have two or more

  3. Since we dine out frequently and go out to drink even more frequently, there are hundreds of thousands of establishments that serve alcohol

Factor all those items and you have the recipe for a lot of people driving and drinking. I remember two years ago, I drove through Louisiana on business. On the back roads I passed no fewer than 3 DRIVE UP BARS. Yes, this makes no sense but bars existed where you could drive to a window and order a Daqueri and drive away drinking it. Google it if you donā€™t believe me.

Americans DRINK, and they couldnā€™t care less who they hurt when they do so.
Why do you think our drinking age is the highest in the world? Because we treat alcohol like ā€œforbidden fruitā€, so of course all the teenagers sneak it and become alcoholics. In Europe alcohol is treated like just another beverage, but they have ZERO tolerance for drunk driving and the penalties are severe ā€“ so people who go out and drink are very careful, and take cabs home.
Americans on the other hand, are too cheap to pay for a cab, and always say ā€œthat wonā€™t happen to me.ā€ and ā€œI need my car to go to work in the morning, so Iā€™m driving it home no matter what.ā€ and then they drive drunk.

Personally I believe NO DRUNK SHOULD EVER HAVE THE RIGHT TO MEDICAL CARE OF ANY KIND. Hit a tree, die there. Hit someone else, your body should be left in the car while they EMS the other person you hit away.
Itā€™s called consequences.

I admit I was wrong. the U.S. DOES have the highest death rate but not necessarily the highest percentage of alcohol related crashes. But were close as you graph shows.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/health/us-highest-crash-death-rate/

No refrigerants use astatine since that element is extremely rare, radioactive, and has a short half life. The heavier halogens like bromine were used to make non-flammable oil for power transmission transformers but Iā€™m not aware of it being used in refrigerants.

Well, there are many ā€˜flush and fillā€™ alternatives the past two decades. Duracool was pioneered in Canada, is a HC blend and uses less product than any of the others. There are other blends that work and of course are legal. Donā€™t whine about supposed flammability issues - like most ignorant people do. Take a look at the ingredients in your can of kitchen (vegetable oil based) cooking spray - - yes, propane and isobutane. Big deal. We use flammables every day of our lives - not to mention LPG appliances and portable bbqā€™s.
R134a was originally selected as alternative to Freon because manufacturer, Dupont, was first off the blocks - - in spite of U.S.E.P.Aā€™s total ignorance as to the dangers of that particular product. IF YOU APPLY HEAT TO R134a, THE CHEMICAL CONVERTS TO HYDROGEN-PHOSGENE, - - thatā€™s right, MUSTARD GAS (google it). ONE MORE point of info is that, considering all the OEM R134a installations were adequately ā€˜engineeredā€™ for that comparatively inferior product, converting to other legal aftermarket products is not an issue. However, IF you install (retro-fit) R134a into a system ENGINEERED for R12/Freon, you can NOT expect the same level of cooling success. Please search and read. thanks

Actually, thatā€™s r-12, not r-134a. To produce phosgene under heat, you need chlorine. R-12 has it, r-134a being composed of hydrogen, carbon, and fluorine, does not.

2 Likes

Phosgene is NOT mustard gas. Phosgene is O=C=Cl2.

Mustard gas is a chlorinated thio-ether. Cl-CH2-CH2-S-CH2-CH2-Cl
Replace the chlorine atoms with hydrogen atoms and the sulfur atom with an oxygen atom and you have diethyl ether or starting fluid. You donā€™t have to inhale it, it blisters your skin on contact.

Oh geez, I didnā€™t even notice that he said mustard gas and phosgene are the same thing.

About the only thing he got right was the name of Duracool ā€“ and even there he screwed up because he failed to mention that itā€™s illegal because itā€™s made out of explodey stuff. :wink:

Phosgene is what you get if you replace the hydrogen atoms in a formaldehyde molecule with chlorine atoms. You can make it by reacting carbon monoxide with chlorine.

More like highly flammable stuff when mixed with air. I googled Duracool and the MSDS sheet indicates itā€™s made of 100% alkanes.
So itā€™s likely a blend of propane, butane and maybe ethane chosen to mimic the boiling points of common refrigerants.

Actually, I have often wondered ā€œwhy not use propane as the working fluid in a refrigerator?ā€. Yea, itā€™s flammable just like the propane in your backyard grill and the many gallons of gasoline in your cars fuel tank.