Help! Our daughter is driving an '01 Ford Escape w/176,000 miles on it. My husband put BF Goodrich AT tires on driving in the winter months in the NC mountains. I thought that 4wd/ awd is best for icy, snowy conditions, so I’ve been shopping around. Jeep Cherokee & Subaru Forrester 2002-2004 w around 100-125,000 miles as a safer (yet affordable) alternative. I don’t know if the AT tires could be put on one of these cars, but would do that if possible.
So…which route to pursue? Keep what she has (which feels like a tin can to me when my daughter is whipping around the winding interstate highways) or pursue finding an awd or 4x4 car for her.
Keep what she has, get her a set of winter tires on extra rims from tirerack.com. Neither option you list is better, Jeeps can be less than reliable, and pre-2005 Foresters often have expensive head gasket problems.
AT tires can be a decent compromise for those who only occasionally see snow. They are not as good on ice as winter but can be really good in snow. I assume that the Escape is fwd. IMO, it depends upon the amount of snow. If you decide to go awd, go awd and NOT 4wd. Inexperienced drivers can have problems with that system. AT tires, if you can find them in the right size, would be an excellent choice on a Subaru in your area.
" I thought that 4wd/ awd is best for icy, snowy conditions"
Maybe. It all depends on your needs.
Winter driving creates two problems.
The first thing we think of is getting stuck in the snow. It happens and it is not fun, but getting stuck in the snow is seldom life threatening. It usually is just an inconvenience. Four Wheel Drive is very helpful when it comes to getting stuck.
The thing many people miss until it is too late is that stopping is far more important than going. Generally if you get stuck in the snow, you can get someone to help you get unstuck. Bad buy seldom life threatening.
On the other hand skidding out of control is serious and is far more likely to cause you serious harm. Four Wheel drive does NOT help you avoid skidding out of control.
Please put your safety in front of your convenience.
Many cars now have active systems to help prevent you from skidding.
All wheel and 4 wheel drives will help you get out of the ditch when you slide into one. Stability control can help you keep out of the ditch in the first place, which is something 4WD can not do. Good real winter tyres (not All season tyres) help you avoid the ditch and help you get out if you do get into the ditch.
Remember Safety First and convenience second.A few enlightenments.
-awd helps you accelerate in snow which is a big safety factor any time, esp. merging, climbing hills, passing etc.
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while doing the above, awd is superior in control, help keeping you on the road with steerage maintained under power
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awd has brakes too, but engine braking control and effectiveness down grades is enhance dramatically with awd under all conditions.
-traction control and stability control which help keep you on the road, actually perform better with awd…as it now can control power to all wheels,
-getting stuck can be life threatening, especially in mountains. Some times the ditches cause rollovers or drop off quite a ways. Waiting in the winter for help on the side of a slippery road is dangerous.
-with awd and snow tires or ATtires in snow, awd in slippery conditions is vastly superior for control both accelerating and steering giving you a big advantage. Like all systems, with awd, you need to drive conservatively and use appropriate tires, they aren’t magic and will cost you more in purchase and maintenance especially if on an older car.
Where I live (NE Pennsylvania) it is very rare to see a 2WD Escape. So, is your daughter driving a 2WD or 4WD Escape? As far as body style and safety it might feel like a tin can but it is not any worse than a Jeep or Subaru.
If it is a 2WD getting a 4WD or AWD replacement could be better.
If it is a 4WD then just put the best “winter” tires on the car you can buy. AT tires might be ok as far as tread design for bite in snow, but they don’t have winter rubber compounding which means a winter tire is better in ice as the rubber stays more flexible in cold weather.
Winter tires and sensible driving are the best ways to handle winter driving. Good training and instruction on winter driving techniques, practice driving skills and skidding skills in parking lots safely, and experience are all more important than the vehicle your daughter is driving. A Jeep or Subaru don’t guarantee your daughter’s safe return. Even a 2WD Escape is fine if it has winter tires and she knows how to handle it properly. The comment about “my daughter is whipping around the winding interstate highways” is what concerns me. More time and effort into driver training seems more important and a better use of resources rather than spending more money on a different car.
“whippng around the winding interste”…In test reports, suspect ability to cross winds was noted with it’s upright decade old boxy design.
BF Goodritch AT tires are branded with the mountain snowflake industrial standard emblem for meeting winter traction requirements. Like UT says, I would not expect their ice traction to be as good as dedicated winter tires.
“feels like a tin can to me when my daughter is whipping around the winding interstate highways”
Sounds like maybe she can drive what she has, and slow down some. It’s not a race, just a destination, and getting there alive is most certainly important. As conditions change, you have to adjust. When it comes to ice and snoe, slow can be a very good friend.
I appreciate all your excellent feedback. I"ve checked the tires and I’m not sure the ones we got are rated for snow (we live in coastal SC). Would having chains and a sandbag or two in the back of her car do as well as winter tires? It sounds like driver skill is the real key here. I’ll be showing her your comments in hopes that hearing from others may drive the message home better than ole mom’s! It’s been an ongoing discussion in our household.
Interesting piece of information on the rubber consistency with winter tires. I’ve definitely learned a lot!
Goodyear has all terrain tires and they also have models marked TA…big difference. Do you really think your daughter is up for mounting chains…properly when needed ? It’s not easy. Just having the chains sittinging in the back won’t help. Sand bags as weight in the back won’t help you stop…and won’t help you go if you have fwd. You must spread the sand.
Do you have all wheel drive or front wheel drive now ?
I agree with Joseph. 4 WD helps you go but doesn’t help you stop any better. It can also lead to over-confidence. One morning it was frosty on the freeway and I was going about 50 with my FWD. A 4 WD thought that was too slow but not long afterward he was spinning out of control, into the ditch, bounced and over-turned.
That has nothing to do with being 4wd or handling. The guy was an idiot. I’ve been passed by fwd cars who wound up skidding into an accident. Idiots drive all sorts of cars.
@dogosa…EXACTLY…Yes there are people who drive a 4wd vehicle are over confident and get themselves in trouble. That doesn’t mean we all do. There are people who own Vette’s and think because it’s a sports car they can drive it “Safely” at 120mph…again their just IDIOTS.
@Joseph - Stability control can help you keep out of the ditch in the first place, which is something 4WD can not do.
I suggest you drive a 4wd system before you make that statement. 4wd can CERTAINLY keep you from going into the ditch. That is one of it’s STRONG points. I’ve driven in way too many snow storms with 4wd to know it’s capabilities.
If (I’m not sure) the Escape is FWD, then putting sandbags in the back isn’t necessarily a great idea. If they were on top of the drive axle, it might not be bad, but at minimum, you would want them between the axles.
I’m assuming you think the rear end is going to let go before the front. Good winter tires may help with that, and you’re going to want to make sure all 4 are the same. There are a few “winter tire” threads out here. One has some videos, too, just to make life interesting. Have a read, it may enlighten you, and/or your daughter (when I find the specific one, I’ll post a link).
here’s one: http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2135265/snow-tires
One thing to consider here, depending on the maturity level of you daughter, the AWD/4wd may mean that your daughter will just lose control at a higher speed. For the amount of snow/ice you get in coastal SC, she could just stay home on THAT day.
Mike: “I suggest you drive a 4wd system before you make that statement. 4wd can CERTAINLY keep you from going into the ditch. That is one of it’s STRONG points. I’ve driven in way too many snow storms with 4wd to know it’s capabilities.”
I have driven 4WD, but not enough to consider myself knowledgable based on personal experience.
I have read a number of studies/test and the one’s have read and seen, indicate to me that from the standpoint of control of the car (the ability to keep it out of the ditch) 4WD offers little if any advantage.
I don’t know if it is still around, but the video of test of various combinations give a good grade for Winter Tyres and Stability control. It is fun watching the car make it through a snow/ice track while the cars, including (AWD or 4WD (I forget which) with stability control and without out it. The difference was very interesting.
Just off hand, why would standard 4WD (without stability control) offer better control than FWD? Maybe, I can think of a possibility, but I don’t recall hearing results of a real test.
Jos. Check this out. http://www.4wdhandbook.com/rmp/blog/do-you-need-AWD-in-winter. One guys explanation…
Mine is, it’s all about physics. The physics I use on all my 4 wd vehicles including my tractors when loading and snow blowing, trucks when plowing and Suv when just Putzing around.
You need to push the accelerator when starting up, merging, going up hill, passing and or just to maintain speed in snow. With all the power going to two wheels, the front, you loose steerage and under steer and have to unload the fronts by letting up on the accelerator. Not good, starting up, merging , going up hill, passing or maintaining speed. You have to choose between steering and decelerating and possibly stopping, many times putting yourself in harms way.
4wd distributes the driving force over all the wheels to lessen wheel slippage allowing you to turn more effectively when you MUST press on the accelerator. The more slippery the conditions, the more distinct the advantage. I don’t know about anyone else, but even in snow, I spend half my time pushing on the accelerator. During that time, I can’t steer as effectively in fwd as I can with 4wd.
I appreciate the desire to make the best decision, but, you have to look at all the cars that have made it through all the winters since maybe the 30’s? I have an 18 year old daughter and have taught her how to drive in the snow, my basic rhetoric is it is not how fast you go but how well you stop and steer and know the limits of your control at the time. Sure I love her but I am ok with her being in an 02 saturn, not even thinking of upgrading her. I live in WI and most cars make it on the few days of bad weather, and she will too!
@joseph -
I have read a number of studies/test and the one’s have read and seen, indicate to me that from the standpoint of control of the car (the ability to keep it out of the ditch) 4WD offers little if any advantage.
I’d like to see these studies…I’ve read many studies myself…and they ALL say 4wd is far far superior in keeping your vehicle on the road on snowy roads then any other type of system…I’ve probably driven well over 200k miles on snowy roads. You get far better traction with 4wd then with any other 2wd system. There’s a reason you can’t drive in certain areas in the country when it’s snowing without 4wd.