Asking the front wheels to do everything, accelerate, brake and turn is always inferior to spreading the work through all four wheels when it comes to control in all conditions. AWD and rwd do everything better…except, Fwd is more efficient, cheaper and utilizes space better. That’s it…
dagosa,
Thank you for your response. It has given me some cause to reconsider my opinions on the subject. While I still don’t fully agree with your opinions, I will have to give the whole thing some additional thought and research.
I think we both can agree that driving with care is always the safest choice. Technology is good but care and prudent choices are always the best choice.
To everyone winter is here. Drive safely, the car in front of you may be me.Jos. Thank you for your considerate response. Thought and research are valuable and as a teacher I respect that. Still, nothing beats climbing into both types of vehicles and driving in snow and ice on all types of terrain. That puts whatever you read in perspective.
I will be definitely behind you. A huge advantage of awd is that I find myself driving more slowly in snow not needing momentum to make hills.
The main problem I see with 4wd/awd systems is the fact that many people buy them thinking they can go anywhere no matter what. When it’s snowing…or freezing rain…I drive much slower…put it in 4wd if it’s real bad…MOST of the time 4wd is NOT necessary…But when we go skiing…or trips to family in upstate NY in the middle of winter…4wd makes all the difference in the world.
If the Forester is at least an '03 or later model you might want to think about it. Make sure the timing belt and other normal front engine replacement items have been done if there is over 100k miles on it. One of the great things about Subarus is their low center of gravity and center balance. These things really help the car get around on snowy roads. Take a test drive in one and feel the difference for yourself.
Mike “When it’s snowing…or freezing rain…I drive much slower…put it in 4wd if it’s real bad…MOST of the time 4wd is NOT necessary”
Wish it were the same…this is what I have to do in winter, just to get the paper. Please excuse the ipod quality while driving and taking movie at the same time while praying no one is coming in the other direction.
check out the hill climb test in the 2nd link
Forgive me, but as I read it the links provided compare all season tyres vs winter tyres.
Does anyone have like data comparing AWD 4WD and FWD?
What I am looking for is evidence that AWD and/or 4WD improves handling under snow and/or ice conditions.
I have seen some such data for Traction control this year, but not AWD vs FWD vs 4WDJos.
Look at snow pack skid test times for each ! It’s there…look at hill climbing too for all times. From bscar2.
If you accept that an awd car can out accelerate a fwd car in snow and ice, you have to accept the fact that it can out turn a fwd car as well while doing it. True as well for merging and passing. So, include HANDLING while accelerating.
While I do see some value to the web pages you referenced, I have to consider that they appear the testing was about tyre types (All Season tyres vs Winter tyres not comprehensive safety issues.
Snow Safety
http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/safe.html
Tire Rack had this to offer:
However, it is important to remember that while the all-wheel/four-wheel drive vehicle’s ability to accelerate in slippery conditions provides a lot of confidence, it doesn’t really offer any unique advantage when the vehicle has to stop or turn.
Stopping yes…4wd/awd offers no advantage…but turning…4wd will turn better…awd - it depends on the system.
But those are only PART of the reason 4wd helps keep you from going into a ditch…the fact that you’re NOT sliding around is the other. Going up the hill I grew up on - 4-6 inches of snow can put the best fwd vehicle in a ditch…every 4wd vehicle I’ve owned can easily make it. The fwd just can’t get enough traction to stay on the road. They end up sliding all around trying to make the hill.
And the AWD system in the PM test was an FWD biased system; one they put on as an afterthought as they built the car. I believe a full-time system like Subaru’s might even fare better than the Chevy they used
Jos.
You continually say that awd " offers no distinct advantage when you have to stop and turn". True…only if you are all ready moving at your intended speed. But in Accelerating, hill climbing, merging and passing, you can still turn in snow with awd when you can’t with fwd. I have yet to even hear you naysayers address this situation, which occurs all the problem times in winter driving. If all you have to do is drive down straight, flat, plowed road…with no traffic, you wouldn’t even need snow tires.
. Bottom line…naysayers just don’t drive awd cars through an entire winter enough to appreciate these differences and have to rely on “tests” from others then pick and choose the results that support their positions. Argue that they may be too expensive to offer these advantages enough in your area, fine. But, it is not correct to argue they don’t offer these advantages to begin with.
Bsca2… Right. Even the awd Subarus I owned before electronic aids, were more stable then the newer RAV4 I own now. The built in rear wheel bias with rear limited slip was outstanding for handling in all conditions, esp. while climbing and accelerating.
Turning while stopping YES…awd and 4wd doesn’t give any advantage…but turning while accelerating…4wd has a HUGE advantage…
I have driven all kinds of cars RWD, 4X4, FWD, and AWD. I learned snow driving in Ithaca NY area in late '60’s driving the worst type of car - Ford Mustang, V8, stick, wide oval tires, RWD. With studded snow tires I was able to deal with all the hills in Ithaca and regularly drove to Greek Peak ski area, which was often snowy icy back roads. I have owned a 4X4 Jeep, and AWD Volvo wagon over the years.
AWD is better, not doubt about it. I slid down my hill in the AWD Volvo when the ABS brakes killed all the braking power. I realized then that AWD got me up the hill fine with the regular tires, but I needed winter tires to stop dependably. The Volvo AWD with winter tires was simply an awesome winter car. Nothing could stop it until you had about 24" of unplowed snow. Still I eventually sold the Volvo because of the huge repair bills to keep it on the road.
I now do fine with a Honda Civic stick shift with high end winter tires. Is it as good as the Volvo, no; but I never get stuck or in trouble.
My RWD '04 T’bird is terrible in snow and I have Blizzack winter tires on it. That allows me to move the car in the driveway, which is about all I do with it in the winter.
My Toyota Sequoia is a 4X4 and does good in snow. I do not put special winter tires on the Sequoia so I am careful with the braking if I encounter snow. Mostly in the winter I drive the Civic over the Sequoia because I don’t want to put out more money for the winter tires.
My experiences lead me to conclude that the most important component to safe winter driving is winter tires. First, it is all about traction. AWD is the best drive train, then 4X4, then FWD, and lastly RWD. But I’d rather drive a RWD car with winter tires than an AWD car with standard tires. The ability to accelerate easily in AWD with standard tires (4X4 too when engaged in 4WD) simply leads many drivers to go too fast for conditions and when they need to stop or turn when they are speeding along they end up in the trouble and in the ditch.
For a new driver I appreciate that I started out driving the worst car in some very bad conditions. It taught me a lot and I don’t mind driving in snow at all. My main concern when driving in snow is vision. If I can see the road I can go. In white out conditions, nothing moves. That makes the 2nd most important component vision, the need to see the road is huge. Fill up the de-icer fluid container, carry extra fluid in the trunk, winter wiper blades, and take off the coats and run the heater on high to keep the windows clear.
Then comes the 3rd component; traction and that means winter tires unless you can sit at home until the storm clears and the plows come out. Once the roads are plowed and treated with sand, cinders, and salt you can drive just about any car with all season tires.
Uncle…well said. That pretty much sums it up.