That doesnt really seem to be that much to me… Then again I am a self professed idiot sometimes. All I know is that if you gave the public a chance to drive just the standard 4cyl Honda Civic Diesel and enjoyed that torque and MPG…people would come around FAST I think. Then add the Diesel to the Volt idea…and the MPG goes thru the roof. I mean if we were going to do a Volt type vehicle why not use the more efficient Diesel engine at its core…it doesnt make sense to me otherwise.
" the additional cost penalty will become so small as to be insignificant…No?"
Well…no. They’re about $1500 more expensive in Europe, and they’ve been making them forever.
But the higher Diesel cost shouldnt exist…IF they made more of them it WOULDNT exist. I think there is a bigger reason that the US markets Pallette is being soured. Do they not want us burning Diesel? I mean big oil shouldnt care bec Diesels burn Petrol too… The design of the D engine does add cost but it shouldnt be as much cost as we are seeing…what if that cost went away or was reduced to peanuts…what would you guys say then?
I’ve driven a diesel Jetta actually. I wasn’t impressed with the performance. And the numbers bear me out - 0-60 on the 2011 is 8.7 seconds. That is a full half second slower than the gas variant of the same car (and we aren’t even talking about the VR6 here), not that the gas car is exactly quick itself.
Don’t misunderstand me - I’m not saying modern diesels are bad, and I’m certainly not saying they aren’t better than they were 30 years ago. They’re a great fit for a lot of people, but it’s been proposed in this thread that they deliver good performance, and when you compare them to their gas-powered counterpoint, they simply don’t.
Diesel engines are always going to be more expensive. Much higher compression ratio means a more costly base engine, then you have to add turbocharging to get power up to gas engine levels, which is added cost, then the added pollution controls, more $$. No reason for them to cost the same.
But $1500 IS PEANUTS…dont you think?
…and why does everyone keep saying how many miles it would take to make it a worthwhile price hike? I dont really get that… I mean What do people think when they buy two cars…one a Civic for 18K and a BMW 335 for say 47K…do they try to justify the price difference by fuel mileage…Not Fun factor, personal preference, or any number of other reasons we buy cars? To try and find justification solely on mileage and how many it would take to make it “worth it” doesnt compute much for me. Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Mike, youre a smart guy…why does everyone keep trying to tell me how many miles it would take to make the additional cost of a Diesel “worthwhile” I mean there are so many other criterea we use to “justify” our spending 80K on a Sweet Porsche…or something like that. The dollar amounts we are talking about arent near enough to give me concern …like say $1600… Do US car buyers really sweat it out over this kind of change…?
The last time they were the same price was in the 70s and 80s when Mercedes 200 series could be had with either engine at the same price and the VW Rabbit in the late 70s and early 80s came with that choice as well. The diesels, unfortunately, were rather simple, no-turbo types with limited power, and there were no environmental restrictions requiring all sorts of after treatment.
Yes, the new clean diesels are much more compolicated and expensive and also require more maintenance. For someone who drives a lot and mainly on the highways, a diesel makes economic sense.
I once knew a highway inspector who bought the basic Mercedes D200 and put 350,000 miles on it, all paid by the highways department at the gasoline mileage rate, something like 16 cents/mile! Diesel sold for less per gallon then gasoline, and his driving actually saved him a geat deal. The 350,000 times 16 cents came to $56,000 and a new D200 cost about $9000 then! Gas sold for less than 50 cents a gallon, and diesel was less.
When the D200 was full of rust holes he ordered another one and kept making money.
If it’s any consolation, as the owner of a Prius, I’ve determined that they’re not worth it. Just compare the MSRP of a Prius and a Fit, and then figure out how long it’ll take you to justify the cost difference. Once you start talking about anything over about 150,000, get the one you prefer driving.
“Diesels are gutless from a performance standpoint.”
If that’s true, why do Audi and Peugeot diesels dominate Le Mans racing?
$1500 is not peanuts. It’s more than 20% of cars up to $30,000. Or you could look at it as 100,000 miles to pay off the premium. And the premium for a diesel in the USA is at least $3000 - $3400 even for a Golf. I think most people would consider a diesel if it saved them money. In today’s market, that is very unlikely. Why should Honda or any other manufacturer make such a risky investment? There are twice the number of diesels on the market today than there were 5 years ago (not counting trucks). If they sell well, the other manufacturers will want some of the action.
Mahindra was supposed to be bringing a mid-sized pick up with a 4cyl diesel to the states, but red tape, I think, has caused some problems with that.
I favor the Diesel, I have a liberty Diesel and liberty gas. avg mpg 27 vs 20, Diesel has plenty of power and acceleration… I never forgave GM for souring the diesel market here in the early 80`s… I think our refineries are set up for the current ratio of gas to diesel and the refineries do not want to have to make adjustments…
The vast majority of Americans just doesn’t want to be bothered with the added hassles of a diesel and the car makers are happy to give US what we want. Personally I would enjoy a Subaru Brat sized vehicle with enough power to keep up with city traffic. Those little trucks from the “Bombay Bicycle Club” look quite adequate to me but they remain somewhat of a “pig in a poke.” And a Yanmar diesel would be fine with me.
I did drive a TDI Jetta, compared to the VR6 model of the same car it was quite gutless
superior fuel economy. They don’t have to stop to refuel nearly as much.
In Mexico, Chevy sells a cool little unibody Brat type P/U truck…Perfect little urban delivery vehicle…No interest for such things in the States I guess…Ahh here it is, Chevy Tornado…That black box in front of the rear wheel is a step…
Mike, I think the Prius is 1/2 class up on the Fit. But I agree, hybrids are not money-makers. That said, I bought one, and getting 38 mpgs day in, day out in an intermediate (MKZ) is still worth it, especially with gas prices headed towards $4/gallon. I smile every time I fill it up…
Because Le Mans is an endurance race, and the increased volumetric energy density of diesel is a huge advantage in an endurance race?