In general those who choose to do as little maintenance as possible do so because they’ve gotten away with it enough in the past to keep doing it.
I may not agree with that behavior, but it is their car.
I think the Chevy Chevette was basically an American Yugo
Only vehicle I ever knew of where the rear seat was optional.
@cwatkin I would not agree that the Chevette was an American Yugo. True, it was a very primitive machine, but it was not more unreliable than US cars of that era. My sister had one for years living in a rust-prone area with cold winters. It was just a car that was impossible to like. She drove hers for 7 years as a second family car, then upgraded to a Pontiac Ventura. At that time, the car still had a body; a Yugo would already have been baled up at the scrap yard.
Actually the engine of the Chevette was pretty reliable. It was the 4 cylinder Iron Duke. Tranny was OK also. But it was prone to rust…and the interior was real cheap. Very light…and not a lot of power. Probably more reliable then the Yugo…and had a much better parts supply.
@cwatkin, I have had good luck with the Acer brand netbooks. The one I bought with Windows XP in 2008 is still running, although the battery doesn’t have much life left in it. The one I bought last year with Windows 7 was terrible, until I wiped it clean and installed Linux. Now it runs great.
Since they’ve stopped making netbooks, I’ll eventually have to get a tablet, but for now, my netbooks are quite reliable and cost effective.
Let’s not forget about the Ford Maverick somewhere around 1970. That was truly a stripped down car.
One thing I’ve noticed about my own maintenance habits is that since I have retired its like pulling teeth to go out in the garage and service or repair the cars. I keep putting it off and usually its no big deal. When I drove 3000 miles a month in all weather conditions, it was a necessity to have minimize any problems, so if I had to be out in the garage at 11:00 at night to keep rolling, it was not a problem. Just a matter of need and priorities I guess.
The thing I always hated about a chevette was the offset steering wheel. It was angled to the left. It always bothered me.
“Let’s not forget about the Ford Maverick somewhere around 1970. That was truly a stripped down car”.
I owned a 1971 Maverick and was doing a lot of driving at the time. It was a cheap car to maintain. Changing ignition points, spark plugs, etc was a snap. I could slide a pan under the engine. The drain plug was on the side of the pan and I could reach down along the side of engine and remove the plug without crawling under the car.
Unfortunately, the Maverick rode like a wheelbarrow. When I found that I was having to spend more money on Preparation H than for maintenance on the Maverick, I decided it was time for a new car.
I realize this is OT, but I am responding to other postings on computers.
I am using my HP2000 laptop, $350 from Wal-mart last October. Fastest, best laptop I have had yet.
Next to me is my 2006 e-machine desktop which still runs flawlessly. A little underpowered after 7 years, but still runs great for Internet; photo editing; and general use. It won’t run Google Earth. Well, it will but like molasses. Got it seven years ago from Wal-mart at a darned good price.
As soon as I get one, I set it up dual-boot with Linux. (This is correct spelling, not Lynux.)
Here in Mexico, I see workers coming back from the States, usually with a $2000 computer like our computer expert tells them they need. Two years later, I buy the same thing at Wal-mart for under $500 and it runs the same as the $2000 two year old one does. Usually, my Wal-mart model runs long after theirs gives up the ghost.
Consumer’s Report not only does good car reliability studies, but also good computer repair studies. E-machines/Gateway laptops were at one time very bad. That is not true any more. But, once people get something in their head it is hard to change them. Especially if they have an economic interest in that viewpoint.
In 2012, my latest CR report here in Mexico, there was no significant difference in repairs needed between any of the models of laptops. (CR said 3% difference was not significant, and the brands ranged from 9 for Apple to 12 for Sony/Compaq/Dell. Gateway Lenovo HP 11.
One difference in the low priced models at Wal-mart is they only have the very minimal Windows installed. I suppose comparing them to the Professional Windows in a machine with more RAM and faster processor does make them look pretty simple. But, Linux does not have a minimal version, and Wal-mart stuff does fine with it, especially if you add a bit of RAM, not expensive these days.
@Triedaq I had a 1971 Mercury Comet, a Maverick with a nicer hood ornament. It was basic to say the least, with the sleaziest vinyl upholstery on any car I’ve ever owned. No support in the seats either!
The basic power train was reliable, but everything else was fragile and pieces fell off regularly.
This was a car I’d rather forget.
As for the Wal-Mart computers, I am sure some may be OK. IT sounds like you have done pretty well with them but it seems to be more common that this stuff breaks after a few weeks after the warranty is up. I would have to say that the weakest link in the desktops nowadays is the power supply. When it goes, it tends to take the rest of the computer along with it. For this reason, I tend to try and convince people to replace the power supply as a preventative measure, especially are nearing or beyond the warranty period. These power supplies go right into a bin of scrap even if they were working and test just fine on the power supply tester. I have seen them working and testing out just fine but then they let go, often with a loud pop.
AS for laptops and all-in-ones, most are able to be disassembled without too much difficulty. They are screwed together. Many of the ones from WM are GLUED together. Even worse, some are WELDED/MELTED together. They took something hot and melt the two halves of the computer together. I am sure constructing something this way saves lots of time and money but makes repairs much more costly. Good luck getting one apart to replace the smashed screen without it looking terrible when re-assembled. I actually made one pretty good with black electric tape around the bezel and the people were not unhappy. I wouldn’t want something like this but I guess the repair was cheaper than a new one.
Also, I tend to see a lot of units that contain some type of CPU that I either haven’t seen in years or must be a new reject of some kind. While I am aware that Linux isn’t nearly as demanding as Windows, I still get some single core machines with only 2GB of RAM in that were purchased within the past year or so. Some of these were Intel based and could have been upgraded to dual core with a little more memory. Another one was a 1.6GHZ single core AMD CPU I had never seen or heard of until that time. It used some really oddball socket I had never seen before so it could only be upgraded to like a 1.8GHZ as that was the fastest available in that socket. I don’t remember what this was but I haven’t seen it before or since. I am wondering if this was more for smartphones or something. The RAM was also at max with only 2GB. Sure, you could go to Linux but these belong to people that are not real computer literate to start with. Many of these systems I view as complete rejects tend to be sold on Black Friday during their sales.
Also, you could view me as an enthusiast/pro user with computers. Sure, the $350 unit from Wal-Mart may satisfy many but I use my systems to conduct mapping among other CPU intensive operations. I also run solid state drives or SSDs in place of the traditional mechanical rotating hard drives. These drives usually cost as much or more than the average computer out there today but are lightning fast and rugged.
My $350 WM HP is not welded together. And, it has 4GB RAM.
It also has AMD Dual-Core E-450 Accelerated Processor
My little HP $200 netbook which I hand to kids who come to use the Internet with their big sister who uses the old e-machine desktop, is slow. It is a netbook. It does run Internet and it runs little kid games. I have no idea if it is welded or not. I also use it for redundant backup on my main machine.
I think I am starting to understand where you come from, not sure, though. Your earlier comments seemed to indict not only all Wal-mart computers, but also all dummies who would buy any Wal-mart computer.
Now it sounds like you are really saying Wal-mart sells some really poor computers, (along with some good ones) which does not at all surprise me. And, that people who know nothing about computers make some poor buying decisions. That also makes sense. Just like on cars.
But, when you say things like you replace all power supplies, even those which work fine, (at great expense to the owner) assuming they are all going to fail, you lose me. If you mean all Wal-mart computers without regard to make or model, you are flat in the wrong, and better hope the Wal-mart legal department does not find out what you are writing here. If you have certain makes and models in mind, you could do a major service to the mechanics on this board when they need another computer. Ditto on your statement that Wal-mart sells welded computers that cannot be disassembled. I would be interested in knowing which models are welded.
People who buy Wal-mart computers seldom have high computer demands as you do. Internet; e-mail; some light photo work; school papers.
Now, to my real opinion on computers. I have tried to fix my laptops when they break, and have concluded they are disposable machines. So, it probably doesn’t matter if they are welded together. The same person who made a bad decision to buy a poor computer from Wal-mart also made an equally bad decision to attempt to have it repaired when it fails, after warranty. Buying a Wal-mart computer is not their biggest mistake. That is bringing it to you, no offense intended. Well, at least not much, heh, heh.
My laptops last maybe 3 years. They have a hard life. I have driven over 250,000 miles since retiring, 198,000 of them with a 2002 Sienna, and that car has spent most of its time in Mexico in the last 8 or so years. When I go to the States, I drive a lot. Once, I drove 11,000 miles in 59 days while gone from my mountain home. I need a laptop. The cost of repairs on an item not designed for very long life is simply not practical.
I estimate around $125 to $150 a year costs on my laptop, far less on a desktop that sits still most of the time. A $350 laptop that lasts two or three years is a good deal. I have tried to fix them in the past, and it was a mistake. I keep everything well backed up,at least so far. And, I keep several machines of different capacities, so if my main machine breaks I can move to another machine with the backups until I get to the States and buy a new one.
My last laptop, I paid $400 or so, maybe two and a half years ago, last year it started failing video. It acts like years ago when my factory started using MOSFET circuits, and one would get reverse biased. Let it sit a day or two and it would work again. When I want to use that machine, I hook it up to the e-machine monitor and the external video works okay, once it gets booted up and external video is enabled. I priced the mother board, and they want $750 for the mother board on a $400 laptop. No, thanks.
You also have not told us what sort, make and price, of machine you do recommend. I am well aware I could buy an $800 or $1500 machine, but there is no way it is going to last me 5 or 10 years to justify the cost.
And, sometimes some computer people recommend an expensive machine so the owner will feel justified in spending big money fixing it, instead of tossing it when it fails, like I do.
Let me speak to the mechanics here. I am assuming you do not have major computer needs. Buy low priced brand name laptops if you need a laptop, yea, verily from Wal-mart if you will, and treat them like a 200,000 mile Honda which blows its transmission, when it fails.
If you do not need a laptop buy a conventional tower, popular brand name, also from Wal-mart. Should be able to get one well under $500 with all the goodies. If it breaks, as a mechanic, you should be able to replace the bad part at modest cost from many sources. It would be ideal if you know a smart KID to help out if you aren’t confident.
I bought a Compaq desktop Win 98 machine in 1998 and I think it still runs. I forgot to check last month when I went to the States. It doesn’t do much, even with Linux. But, it hasn’t failed in 15 years.
The brands I see that aren’t worth even looking at and use some odd CPU and/or are welded together include all of them. As with cars, all makers have a dud every now and then. The problem I have with Wal-Mart is that they dictate the price that vendors will sell to them for in their contracts. This results in an often lower-grade product. Look up “Snapper mower Wal-Mart” online. I would post the link but that seems to be restricted here. This is an old article where the CEO of Snapper decided not to sell at Wal-Mart as he was going to have to produce and sell goods that wouldn’t live up to his expectations. Obviously Snapper has changed hands in recent years as I found Snapper mowers for sale at Wal-Mart which I haven’t in the past. Often, units sold at Wal-Mart (this includes just about everything) will have model numbers specific to Wal-Mart. Compaq and HP computers often have a W or WM in the model number for Wal-Mart. AS for the welded up ones, these tend to be more common from the Black Friday sales. I think these are sold cheap as disposables as it is often very hard to find references to these after the sale.
That being said, there may be some computers that are just fine sold at Wal-Mart. Of course I am biased to seeing the ones that people have problems with. Because of what I do, I do not see the ones that work fine for many years. As for the power supplies, I don’t want to get into too many details because I could write pages on them. The lower cost computers often use a power supply just barely powerful enough to run the computer. They might have 15-20 watts of excess rated power available above and beyond what the system needs so this is cutting it REALLY close! They also tend to use cheaper, more failure prone brands. They are also not forgiving at all to surges or brownouts, which are very common in this part of the world. They might work fine until this happens, then the entire computer fries. Better power supplies sacrifice themselves to save the rest of the system or even handle minor power issues in stride and keep on running. Not all budget computers cheap out on power supplies but many do. I once got a quad core CPU PC in with a bad power supply of only 250 watts. It was a Dell and this was around the time I stopped suggesting Dells. The brands of power supplies I do not trust are Bestec, Hipro, and sometimes Delta. They have gotten better in recent years but used to have about a 100% failure rate and they would almost always take out the motherboard with them. Yes, I got many sad stories about how the computer fried the pictures of their dead relatives from many crying customers. I often ask people how important the computer is before replacing the power supply. I also tell people to BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP, but they never do. If the computer is mission critical or otherwise important, I suggest a power supply replacement if it uses one I have seen as problematic. If just a cheap web surfer, I tell them it isn’t as important but that the computer will likely be non-repairable if it goes down. Yes, I also run synthetic oil in all my engines (cars, trucks, mowers, etc.) which some people claim is expensive overkill. I have never destroyed and engine and they all run great and use no oil. I am willing to pay for the extra security and not just cut everything to the bone.
As for brands/models I like… I really find the HP DV and DM series to be a great value and reliable. These use an alloy metal case of some type and are extremely tough for a consumer targeted system. You are much less likely to crack a screen on one of these than the cheaper G series which has an all plastic body. I often find these for $50-100 more than the G series and you not only get a more solid body, you get a faster CPU, more RAM, bigger hard drive, and such. If you really want to go cheap, the G series seems to be pretty good and I would suggest it over other lower cost units. Just don’t drop it or bang it around. Compaq is pretty much like a G series, maybe a little lower end. HP and Compaq are all part of HP so Compaq seems to be the lower end. Some are virtually identical to the HP G series while others are welded up and use oddball components I have never seen before (usually Black Friday). HP (anything) with Envy in the name is a performance/enthusiast grade product for gamers and such. They are very nice units but you pay. Units called “HP Compaq” are the business/professional grade. You pay for this but you also get a more solid system. For me, the DV or DM series is a good tradeoff in performance, reliability, and cost. I used to see lots of failed HP and Compaq units but they seem to be a solid choice now. All three of my laptops are HP DV and DM series units.
Sony is good but you will be spending the $750 for a motherboard in a computer as they are proud of their repair parts. They tend to also cost more. Sony is a fine product and made well and reliable but you seem to pay a lot for that Sony name so I see no reason to get one.
Apple doesn’t cheap out on components and their units cost more, much like Sony. They are harder to repair but can be repaired although you had better be prepared to pay! I personally don’t care about the OS which I know some people love and most of the work I do requires Windows. I would rather get an HP DM or DV series for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost that performs nearly as well and just replace it when it isn’t worth fixing. If you like Apple and are willing to pay for one, then it is a good product. My biggest complain against them is that they usually have a slot-loading CD/DVD drive. These are mechanically more complex and failure prone.
Asus makes some really nice computers for a decent price although I do not consider this to be a budget brand at all. You can get these for less than Sony or Apple most of the time and they do make a quality product that I really like.
I used to be a huge Dell fan but have gotten away from them. Their consumer grade units (Inspirion) were once made to the same quality as their commercial lines. They just didn’t have quite the performance. Those days are over with the race to compete in the low price segment. They are also harder to repair. Something simple often involves the complete disassembly of the computer. From what I have seen and heard from others, Dell is the worst right now for poor design when repairing the unit. Now, if you consider is disposable, this isn’t a concern. Dell also makes business grade Latitude, OptiPlex, and Precision series units which are excellent and would suggest to anyone willing to pay the extra money.
Toshiba was once one of the better ones on the market, then they fell off. 80% or more of my repairs were once Toshiba. They have improved a great deal over the recent time based on my work and the reviews. I recently looked up the various ratings for someone and they are still at or near last place but are not too far behind the others like they once were. They are not as easy to repair so I tend not to suggest them. I don’t see a lot of bad ones and figure the current bad reviews are holdovers from a few years back.
Samsung seems to make an OK unit but I have seen some complete disasters when it comes to the pre-loaded software messing up. I have reloaded some of these but am sure many just trash them when something goes awry with the software.
Lenovo makes a good product if it has “Think” in the name. The others are cheaper units. Although I haven’t seen any of these in a while, I saw some real junk a few years ago. My biggest issue with this company is that it is partly owned by the Chinese government.
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Acer, eMachines, and Gateway are all essentially the same company now. Although they have come a long way from the days of old, they are still one of the ones I see the most often. They are also the cheapest. I would suggest splurging for a cheaper HP G series if you want to save money, yet get something a little better. I do seem to have pretty good luck with the netbooks and tablets made by Acer. There was a time when 80% (or more) of my work came from eMachines. This was good and bad for me. Sometimes it would just be the power supply. Other times the only thing salvageable out of the entire computer was the metal case box and the sum of all the repairs rendered it non-repairable from an economic standpoint.
I also think that some of the problem with the cheaper units isn’t the unit itself but the owner. You notice how the budget brands of cars tend to have a lower resale value??? This isn’t because brands such as Kia are a bad car at all. For the money, I think they are a great value. The problem is that the people buy a cheap car and then cheap out on maintenance like oil changes. For some reason, the lower-end computers tend to be more common among heavy smokers. Smoke really seems to do a number on computers and sometimes I find like 1/2 inch of tar cemented dust in the fans and cooling heatsinks. On the other hand, one of my best customers tends to smoke around his higher end computers. Sure, they don’t last as long but he has the money to replace them and feels that having a better computer is worth the money.
IF you want to know the brand I find myself cursing the most recently, it is Dell, mainly the Inspirion series. I also try to avoid anything with a slot-loading CD/DVD drive. These are mechanically more complicated and seem much more prone to failure. They are often harder to replace as these units are often more integrated for cosmetic reasons. There used to be a line of Dells that used these and I was always seeing them going out. This is my largest strike against Apple besides the high cost. Laptop optical drives with the traditional tray load offer another nice feature. The laser eye is contained within the tray. Most of my laptop optical drive “failures” are not actual failures but dirt on the eye. I can usually fix this problem in a couple minutes with some alcohol and a cotton swab.
What really bothers me about people buying a budget computer is that they will drive around town all day to save $15 on a computer. My time is worth more than that! My other problem with this is that these people often got a much lower end unit than the one bought on sale for $15 more at another store. I guess I shouldn’t complain too much about these as I do see them for repairs.
The problem with the lower-end PCs like Gateway, e-machines…is you can buy two exact same models from the same store…but the internal components may be completely different. They should have the same chip and same memory capacity and disk capacity…but the mother board could be by different brands…same with the disk. That’s one reason businesses stay away from them. It’s easier for companies to support one brand that has the same components.
What really bothers me about people buying a budget computer is that they will drive around town all day to save $15 on a computer. My time is worth more than that!
Most people can get by with a Pentium I. Most rarely use it to it’s potential.
My home computers are almost too many to count. I have 3 servers in my basement. Two with 20gb of ram and one with 64gb ram and all 3 have at least 1tb storage. All of use have our own laptops (Dell and HP). Plus I have a work HP laptop…and wife has a work Dell laptop.
I really appreciate the discussion but most of it is over my head. I just want to know where to go, and what to buy, and how I will get it started.
I got a new computer a year or so ago from the guy the has done our computer work in the past and sold us several computers. He has now moved out of the area. At any rate my DT was about $350 for the desk top minus the flat screen. It is marked “Thermaltake” on the box and have never been able to find out anything else about it. Its dual core and seems to be OK for a stripped down model. But what drives me nuts are the noisy cooling fans. They are so loud, I can’t hardly hear myself think. I’ve put the box as far away as I can and tried to deaden the sound but still too loud. At any rate when it goes south, I will simply throw it away but would need to get something else right away.
So how do you make sure what I would get would not also have the screaming cooling fans? I’ve never experienced that before.
Thermaltake is a good brand. This sounds like a custom built computer with a Thermaltake power supply and/or case. Thermaltake is an enthusiast grade product and is quality. The problem is that you probably have a lot of cooling fans which is good thing for a gamer, with a high performance CPU, graphics cards, RAM, and such but not so much for a modest desktop system. There may be several ways to slow down the fans a little. They make rheostats that you can install inline with the power connectors. Depending on how this is setup, you might also be able to use a software utility to adjust the voltage and thus speed and noise of the fans. You might even be able to completely unplug a fan or two if you know which ones are important. WARNING: There are a few fans that are critically important like the CPU fan and do not do this if you don’t know. If you plan on a new system and want it custom made, I would suggest more 120mm fans. These are larger and more expensive but turn slower while moving more air and making less noise. Most consumer grade systems tend to not be real loud and this includes the business grades, with the exception of servers which are usually tucked away where fan noise isn’t a concern.
Some hard drives can be REALLY loud, especially the performance varieties. SSDs are much more costly but dead silent as they have no moving parts! They are also lightning fast and much less prone to mechanical breakdown. Once you go SSD, anything else seems dreadfully slow. There are different grades of these but even the cheapest ones are usually faster than any hard drive. Some of the SSDs will not last as long as a traditional HDD in certain write environments but this is usually not a concern for the average user. I purchased some long-life units that promise 3x the write cycles of normal SSDs for an additional cost which is likely overkill for me.
Yes, the cheaper brands often due have high variances in both quality and capacity within similar models. I am pretty sure that eMachines and such purchase old stock from people who are dumping it for cheap. By old stock, I mean a year or two old that is sitting around never sold. As we all know, computers are outdated the minute we buy them. I have figured out that I could potentially buy some of these cheaper units and sell the parts for a profit. I figure they are buying mass quantities of slightly outdated parts at a huge discount somehow. This is the only way I can explain the low price. The Black Friday units are another story. Some of them are using 8 year old components. They are convincing people it is worth getting up at the crack of dawn and getting into fights for the right to purchase this stuff. These are the ones that are glued or welded together too!
Someone else here mentioned that they viewed laptops as disposable and non-repairable. This isn’t true depending on the issue. Most things are worth repairing. It becomes an issue when the screen or the motherboard are bad. If both are bad, there is no question. It is junk. Cracked screens and failed motherboards are often well over half the cost of a new unit.
As for throwing away computers, you should at least get them recycled. Most people don’t realize that there are often rare earth metals which are somewhat hard to get and a national security issue. There are also a lot of precious metals like gold and silver too. With the exception of older style CRT monitors, most places will take them for free. I have located places to take my junk that pay money for this computer scrap. I took in like 4 cat litter type buckets of old ram, boards, and CPUs, all sorted out and was recently paid $150. Besides the valuable stuff, there is also some toxic stuff that should be recycled for that reason.
While it is true that most people could get away with a much-lesser computer for e-mail, simple games, etc. the industry has convinced everyone that we need to just keep upgrading. This is done with both the hardware and software industry. They are both essentially forcing an upgrade cycle on us. Now they are not supporting the older OSes and you need to get a new one.
One thing I do like about the more modern units is a better focus on energy efficiency. Computers are getting faster without an increase in power needs. This is especially nice on battery powered laptops.
Thanks. Yeah, the guy pretty much put them together himself. The fans are the two main fans for the controlers or whatever they are. I think they’re the 120 mm and had unplugged them to determine where the noise was coming from. Its been a while and I think there were at least two other fans for the case that aren’t noisy. Glad its an ok unit so I’ll just leave it alone. I guess you’re right though, it does sound like a server.
I personally don't care about the OS which I know some people love and most of the work I do requires Windows
I bought a Macbook Pro last year when my old desktop’s hard drive went kaput. I’d been considering a Mac, but the price is what kept me away. Took a little getting used to, but I don’t really mind OSX. I really liked 7, even more so than XP; never tried Vista.
I know a diehard PC/windows fan that has been prompted to save their money so they could buy a Mac for their next computer, based upon the way Windows 8 works.
Yes why keep reinventing the wheel? Make a good basic OS for us Geezers,have neither the time nor inclination to keep getting used to new OS types-Kevin