What does oil break down into that is not slippery?

“the owner didn’t even know anything was wrong, maybe there wasn’t…Also, it’s a diesel…the poster never claimed there was any damage at all to the motor, just something about a ‘clang in the top of the engine’”

[sigh] The car in that thread was NOT a diesel!! [/sigh]

So @hobieTcat, you think it’s OCD to be concerned about an oil filter that’s disintegrating??

In the next few days I’ll be changing the oil (but not the filter) in my car.
It’s been 6 months and about 2000 miles.
It will cost me ~30 minutes and $9 for 4 quarts of conventional oil I bought on clearance and a drain plug washer.

It is quite outrageous to assert that an automobile engine has survived 400,000 miles without an oil change unless the owner can run a 4 minute mile in 4 inch heals on a sandy beach.

I’ve seen a few engines that were even worse than the BMW circuitsmith linked to and at far fewer than 49k miles; all due to not changing the oil and not even worth rebuilding. The 2 prime examples I remember were both well under 30k miles and were both purchased brand new.

Why not carry this over into all mechanical devices? Don’t clean the central A/C condenser or change the filter, don’t change a vacuum bag, forget filter changes on the lawnmower, and to hxxx with brushing your teeth.

Imagine being on a small plane at 10k feet and the pilot notifies the passengers that the aircraft has had no maintenance or oil changes; only topping the oil off if necessary. That would no doubt create some sweaty palms. :slight_smile:

OK I cannot agree with you more, and keep trying to to think of pertinent examples, and I end up with a car driving down the street with a flat tire in my mind. Oh that is why the tpms is blinking, oh that is why the ride is a little rough, what do you mean I need a new tire?

OK4450, I think it’s ironic that you bring up that line of logic(i think we’re off topic here, but), I happen to be 40 something, basically retired, looking for something else to do in life because of applying the exact logic I have been describing in the building facilities industry. I developed products/systems that totally ignored scheduled preventative maintenance and replaced that entire idea with measured maintenance principles. I know, you’ve never heard of that, but I’m sure you can guess what it is and imagine that I ran into the same… resistance(I’ll call it) there as I have here. After I had the opportunity to show people what happens when you measure instead of guess, it became a no-brainer, for some anyway, enough I suppose. Some would never change though. I could show them the math, charts, pictures, utility statements, they didn’t care, as far as they were concerned it couldn’t work, they had never heard of it before. They might say something like “well, the filter company says we should do it like this…” How do you argue with logic like that? Some people can not see the correct solution on their own or just because the logic is explained to them, they can only choose between the answers/advice given by others, maybe it makes life easier that way because they can say “I just did what I was supposed to”.

But anyway, a typical HVAC installation might include a feature like the measurement of filter efficiency. I think it’s obvious to see where this goes from here - some filter locations need to be changed more often, some less, some waayyyy less than their preventative schedule, but most likely NONE that need to be changed ON the schedule. The non-obvious advantage in this case might be seen in a seasonal situation, like when the trees in an area go to seed they might clog up the intake filters almost overnight, but if the filters were changed on a PM schedule the week before, it’s going to be awhile until that HVAC unit is working efficiently again, and if it’s a pharmaceutical or electronics manufacturing plant, that could be a real big problem, quick. You can guess where many other measured maintenance principles would come in handy, and preventative principles would seem pretty inadequate, or more likely, wasteful. I understand why PM is what a lot of industry was built on, and the guys that did it took pride in making sure there were no failures by replacing stuff early, they could afford it then, financially and environmentally(now there are high disposal costs for things like motor oil). They didn’t have things like cheap microprocessors and sensors and data networks already wired throughout the building, but now we do, so why not use them to KNOW what decisions to make instead of picking the schedule off some chart made by the company that sells the filter? Especially when you know the PM schedule is almost certainly wrong for your application, and wrong in the direction of profit to the filter company and waste to your company, except the times when you need to do maintenance sooner, but the PM guys would/could never know which is when.

You might have guessed by now that I didn’t ask my question about oil because I wanted to learn the religion of being a car geek, but one of the things I was never able to develop was a reliable method to determine how oil degrades in a measurable way. I was hoping there might be some old, or maybe new, mechanics trick that someone might give up, something physical that doesn’t require chemical sensors, if that even works.

I think we are done here.

I am familiar with your approach to measured maintenance. As noted it requires sensors or some way to determine timing without periodic inspection. I think you’ll find that there is no way to visually determine if the oil is ready to be changed. Currently, it requires some sort of remote analysis which would fall into some level of preventive maintenance schedule to inspect periodically and currect techniques are somewhat invasive and not available in real-time (you have to perform a chemical analysis and typical send away for results).

A sensor technology does exist and has been proven effective. However, it fell short of cost targets for the vast majority of the population (i.e. personal automobiles). The technology is protected by patents already so no harm in coarse description of the approach. It uses an ATR optical technique with NDIR measurement at two unique wavelengths. The design I was involved in required a minimum of 5 bounces to obtain a sufficient level of signal to noise under identified worst case conditions. The environment also demanded a crystal made from cubic zirconia to produce the right optical properties and not build up a coating that would require periodic cleaning. The number of facets, crystal size and packaging constraints dictated a particular design that was too expensive for the market segment identified as the “holy grail” for this technology. This same technology is currently being used to measure carbon dioxide saturation in liquids in-line production flow.

Sorry for the brevity, typing on small phone keyboard…

Tcat is rebelling against the oppression of maintenance schedule tyrants who have colluded with the oil and filter manufacturers and marketers to rob men of their time and money. Didn’t Fritz Lang make a movie about that?

Tcat has a really high dose of delusional self-obsession.

@hobieTcat, the world isn’t quite as dumb as you think no matter how much proclaiming that loudly from the rooftops helps you puff your own chest. “Measured maintenance” isn’t revolutionary or ground breaking or new or even all that rebellious.

With regards to motor oil, all you ever had to do is go learn all about oil life monitors and the research behind them. You would find that the programming of those monitors lies on stuff being measured to death.

Your only problem in life is that you need a good head doctor to talk to about your delusions about your own gteartness.

Yes, measured maintenance would lead to less oil changes than preventive maintenance. The algorithms used by some manufacturers seem to do a pretty good job and in my case called for oil changes between 3 and 7 thousand miles.
No measured maintenance plan would call for never changing your oil, even oil analysis can only tell you if you have already done damage to your engine.
In the absence of an oil monitor, that mean that the only sensible course is to pick an oil change schedule to prevent the worst case scenario, engine failure.

Truck fleets use regular oil testing to optimize the oil change interval, as well as identify leaks, excessive wear, etc. These tests are chemical and physical analyses.

The local city bus fleet works on the method, and they bring the city busses in every 7000 miles when they do other checks as well. The city spends a good deal of money determining what the best mainteance interval is.

A taxi fleet, once the warranty is off, will typically go 10,000 miles between oil changes, since the vehicles are nearly always warmed up, and accumulate miles quickly.

Now you agree PM is wasteful? And MM is better? And you guys were all aware of the concept of MM the whole time? I know it makes sense as soon as people hear it, but for two days suggesting PM was wasteful received 4 dislikes and 3 troll ratings? This has been an enlightening psychology example, I see that has led someone to decide that this thread needed to go away. Maybe the definition of troll needs to be “someone that the group doesn’t like because the group was shown to be wrong”.

TwinTurbo - Thank You for the input, very interesting, I took a lot of abuse, but it may have been worth it to have the opportunity to read your post. You might be hearing about an oil sensor that will hit the “sweet spot” soon.

cigroller - The world isn’t as dumb as they seem? God, I hope not. Maybe you missed the part about TwinTurbo explaining how expensive a current reliable analyzer is? Especially if the device needs to be on the vehicle. I’m trying to find a physical measurement method, or cheap chemical one. And I agree, proposing good ideas that nobody has heard of has been a problem, but I also agree, the only one;) I tried the doctors, they said I need to be more confident, they are the ones that told me most humans can’t tell the difference between a good idea or not, they have to rely on how they perceive the messenger. I suppose I wasn’t a very good messenger.

oldtimer11 - I’m not saying MM would eliminate maintenance, the reason I’m continuing my long experiment is that in order to determine where the edge is, you have to fall off first, then back up a little, I’m still looking for the fall.

For real this time - I think we are done here.

Megalomania and delusions of persecution. It gets better and better all of the time.

“And you guys were all aware of the concept of MM the whole time?”

What you’re doing isn’t “MM”, you haven’t measured anything.
What you’re trying to do is test to failure. But you’re just re-inventing the wheel.
The manufacturers already do test-to-failure, and they have more resources and gather much more useful information than you or I could as individuals.

I view my vehicles as practical means of transportation, not test beds for test-to-failure.
There’s plenty of guidelines from the manufacturers and other experts, descriptions of experience from service techs on this board and others on the internet regarding engine oil maintenance.
Why do you ignore all that information and set out on your own with a premise greatly at odds with the vast majority?

Why am I wasting my time on you??

Even using oil analysis doesn’t give you an exact number of miles you can drive on the same oil or on different cars. Different brands of oil have different additive packages, driving conditions even in the same car vary day to day and especially season to season and some engines are simply harder on oil than others. There are many VOA (virgin oil analysis) and UOA (used oil analysis) on www.bobistheoilguy.com for varying brands of oil, different engine models, and varying driving habits. If you look at some of the VOA you’ll see there’s quite a difference in virgin oils and if you look at several different UOA for different oils, cars and drivers you’ll see there’s quite a difference in recommendations made to the owners. For this reason most people who use oil analysis and get a recommended xxxx number of miles for one change interval usually allow a 1-2K mile buffer unless they are having the oil analyzed multiple times between changes which would cost more than simply having the oil changed.

You said you’ve proven your no oil change theory over the course of about 400K miles. I’m glad you’ve had good luck with it, but how many cars have you been through in this 400K miles and how many miles have you put on the average vehicle? If you went and bought a new car $20-$50K investment depending on make and model would you stick with your no change theory or would you spend $20 on an oil change every 5K miles? Most cars I’ve owned in my driving career have been several thousand dollar investments (3 bought new) not a few hundred dollars. $20 is a small price to pay for insurance against extensive engine damage. Do you have liability insurance? Probably so. Do you plan on having an accident? Probably not. With this type thinking what’s the use in paying $150-$1000 per vehicle depending on the driver every 6 months for insurance? I’ve driven about 1M miles in the past 35 years and have proven that regular oil changes and other preventative maintenance can allow a single engine to last in access of 500K miles and still have decent cylinder compression and still probably have many miles left in it. Another thing I want to bring out concerning the slippery-ness of oil being the only/major factor in engine life is way off base. I remember as a child my dad changed oil in his '61 Ford Falcon every 1K miles and by the time he traded it off with 77K miles on it the engine had already been rebuilt once and was worn out again. The oil in those days was just as slippery as it is today, but it didn’t have near as good of additive packages as today’s oils.

I have used the same lawnmower since 1987 and have changed the oil after every 25 hours of operation. I suppose I use it 50 hours each mowing season. However, mowing now wears me out, so I think I will go the the OP’s plan and not change the oil any more. Maybe this way I can get out of cutting the grass.

If Triedaq thinks he can get out of mowing by ruining the engine through neglect, he will find himself cutting the grass with a sickle.

Mrs. Triedaq

Thank you Mrs. Triedaq for bringing a good chuckle to this thread. I even gave you a Like on it. :slight_smile:

As to the OP, like minded individuals are the ones who are standing on the roadside awaiting a tow truck and at the service counter, wailing and moaning about how life isn’t fair that their engine which has seen little or no maintenance has suffered a premature death.

The statement about bits and pieces filling in the defects in the cylinder walls is ludicrous. This would be the same bits and pieces that are being crushed between the crank journals and bearings first so the OP would have every one believe this debris is selective in the good it allegedly does.

(For what it’s worth OP, I haven’t dinged you with a Disagree, Flag, or anything else.)

Interesting how people with some half baked or simply looney ideas, attempt to justify them by saying everyone else is too stubborn or stupid to see the wisdom of them. I’ve worked for some of these people and some got fired before they could implement disaster and others got fired after the disaster. I’m sure in their minds they thought they were brilliant. Plain and simple in the business world, you are looking for what works and new ideas come up and are implemented all the time, but failing to spend $20 to protect thousands of dollars worth of equipment, is a formula for failure not success.

@Bing
It is more than interesting, it’s frightening how some people with half baked or looney ideas attempt to justify them by saying that everyone else is too stubborn or stupid to see the wisdom of them. I retired as a university professor last May with 44 years of service at my institution. I spent my career having to work with people like this. Unfortunately, in education, these people somehow get an audience. I think this is why education has become such a disaster from kindergarten through college. I had to sit through enough curriculum committee meetings where I kept hearing “the student doesn’t need to know this” or “the student doesn’t need to know that”. As a result, education has been “dumbed down” over the last twenty years. To me, this is more serious than the claim that oil doesn’t need to be changed. In the case of the oil, the engine life is shortened which is an expense to the owner. However, dumbing down education is a crisis for society.

I know a man who several years ago had a '79 Olds 98. He just never bothered to change the oil until his engine froze up. It seems to me that he had around 100k on it, When he opened up the engine, what used to be oil was powder.
Also, as I understand it, my Caravan calls for an oil change when the oil reaches a certain point of delution. This month it started calling for a change about 500 miles short of the 3k mile schedule. So I plan to change it Monday morning.
Oh, I think the OP said he was done here!