Oil analysis labs/kits (Google is your friend):
There is a certain logic to the OP’s philosophy of ownership. He buys cheap, invests little in maintenance and disposes of the vehicle when a major component fails. So far the major component hasn’t been the engine. The OP has capitalized of the relative over design of the engines in the vehicles he has owned, so far. I predict his Caravan engine won’t see 200K, particularly if something else breaks first.
The OP’s mistake is using his experience to support his theory of lubrication. His is a problem of association vs. causality. In the 1940’s a study found the incidence of polio cases closely correlated with the sales of ice cream. Could ice cream cause polio? No. In the summer when ice cream sales were high children were more likely to come in contact with each other and transmit the virus. Just because the OP’s experience has worked for him doesn’t mean it will work for everyone.
To the OP I say, if this approach works for you have at it, but please don’t try to sell your theory of oil to someone planning to buy a new car and keep it a long time.
MT, my sense is that the OP has been searching for someone to accept his theory since 1984, and is still looking. I wish him well with the road he’s chosen to follow. Certainly he’s doing harm to no one, since I doubt if he’s found anyone who’ll follow the same path.
Your analogy is a good one. Determining effect from cause is more complicated than simply comparing data. It’s easy to say 80% of households eat popcorn while watching TV, therefore eating popcorn causes TV watching, but it isn’t scientifically cause & effect.
He truely must be the luckiest man in the world.
The tragic thing about something like this is that it makes one wonder how many car owners will read it and adopt a policy like the OP mentions.
The OP posed the question about anyone ever having seen an engine, or other mechanical device, that was seized and still had oil in it.
My answer to that would be yes because I have seen not only seizures due to lack of oil changes but prematurely worn out engines, rods through the block, etc.
The OP is admittedly not a car guy and apparently doesn’t know there’s more to this than what an oil sample test would reveal.
“As far as changing oil for sake of the filter and the bits of metal that ground off when a cold engine starts, I say leave the bits in there, after the engine warms up they will be re-deposited where needed, that’s just like the theory behind engine compression boosting products, isn’t it? Some of those products have suspended metal bits that are small enough to flow through the filter, but that fills scratches in the cylinder walls, don’t they? It seems like oil that has been flowing around for a while would have a give-and-take type relationship with the engine, and changing the oil is removing all the bits that are like salve for the motor, putting in an aggressive astringent that soaks up a whole new layer of engine bits that are flushed away a few thousand miles later.”
With no disrespect meant to the OP, I have to admit that I found the logic promulgated above to be interesting in that it demonstrates how a lack of knowledge of the foundations of science can lead to inaccurate comclusions, and I compliment the OP on his ability to articulate his theory. For many millenia man believed that he earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth based on simple observation. Once Capernicus applied the foundation of mathematics to the question he proved that the planets rotated around the sun.
I actually enjoyed the thread and wish the OP all the best.
Whoops, gotta run. Time to change my oil!
Yeah, I need to change oil too. Both cars are at about 55%. One has 4000 miles on the oil and the other 2000 miles. I think I put about 50 miles on the other one last year but will change that too. I need to do taxes first though.
One thing that may be relevant, assuming of course that there is any truth to what the OP says, is that he bought the car with 100K on it and put another 100K on it. 100K is really nothing these days on a good engine, and having an engine already fully broken in at 100K is maybe different than a brand new engine. Of course having several cars approaching or over the 500K mark with regular oil changes was more my goal than a mere 100K. Let’s see if I can remember: 240K, 360K, 480K, 530K, 200K, etc.
Here’s what oil and filter look like after 49,000 (!) miles in a BMW:
You mean that isn’t just “bits” that have redeposited themselves where needed?
Nice link, by the way.
Bing — "One thing that may be relevant, assuming of course that there is any truth to what the OP says ..."This read is a joke ... on us.
Circuitsmith, I hope that sludge was well documented. It would be like this lawyer to sue the dealership for damaging his car when it siezes in about 10,000 more miles.
We’ve had postal employees go nuts, a flight attendant, a pilot, and I wonder if we’re going to see a mechanic go off the deep end sometime when a car like that comes in?
We’ve had postal employees go nuts, a flight attendant, a pilot, and I wonder if we’re going to see a mechanic go off the deep end sometime when a car like that comes in?
Are you kidding??? The mechanic would be seeing dollar signs…
I’m not so sure. I’ve known people that could have written it.
True story -
When I was in industry, back in the '70s, there was a young blond clerk in our engineering department. A friend and myself were standing there talking about the mess we were expecting to have to rake up after the snow melted. Somehow, stones entered the discussion. I’ve forgotten the details, but we told her than stones grow. She wasn’t sure whether to believe us until I pointed out that stones grow better in the cold, and that’s why there are always stones on the lawn to rake up when spring comes. She walked away totally convinced. To this day she probably thinks that rocks grow.
It never ceases to amaze me that there are people that don’t want to do the simplest maintenance on anything. I was playing in the horn section of a band next to a music major. She was having trouble with the passages with sixteenth notes at a fast tempo. I took a look at her horn and it was very difficult to depress the valves. I got my valve oil from my case and thoroughly lubricated the valves on her horn. She hadn’t thought that oiling the valves would make a difference until she tried the horn after I had oiled the valves.
When I was growing up, the motor on our well pump, sump pump and furnace fan had oil cups on the bearings that we lubricated periodically. Our prewar refrigerator was a belt drive and once a month my Dad oiled its motor. Even the electric fans had to be oiled. Today, the refrigerators have sealed units and electric motors are “permanently” lubricated. I recently spent $100 or so to have a watchmaker clean and lubricate an antique watch that I own. Of course, watches today have quartz movements that are battery operated and require no maintenance except for changing the battery. I guess people feel that cars fall into the same category as many other maintenance free things we have today.
I suspect part of my sludge problem came from working construction and driving on dusty construction sites 5-6 days a week for 12 years. Sometimes if I were on a larger site I used my car for moving survey equipment from one area to another instead of carrying it by hand. It wasn’t uncommon for the dust to 1-2" deep in the middle of the summer. I’m sure a certain amount of the dust entered the engine mixed with the oil and began the sludge process even though under those conditions I usually changed the oil every 3K miles. I’ve only gone to 5K mile change intervals on most of my cars in the past 5 years. Before that it was every 3-4K and I still change the oil in my '97 Escort every 3K simply because it gets driven very little. Most of it’s mileage is highway driving and the car only has 32K miles. Even changing it every 3K miles it’s only averaging an oil change about every 1.5 years. The '97 is also kept in a garage where there’s little chance of condensation forming and contaminating the oil.
We’ve all been dancing around with the answer to his question and hadn’t even realized it. “What does oil break down into that isn’t slippery”? I think the answer is sludge.
Nah. I told him that a long time ago. He’s ignored that answer. Either a troll just touring for fun or one of those terribly belligerent people that just stick by their ideas no matter what. “Don’t confuse me with the facts” is, I believe, the general motto. I think that all he wants is for someone to tell him he’s made a brilliant discovery or something, and to commend him for being one of those eccentric rebels who shows all of the doubters. He won’t get it, but that won’t stop him. Belligerence is like that.
Thanks circuitsmith for posting a documented case of an engine that certainly can go a long way without an oil change, and as noted in the link, it didn’t seize, the owner didn’t even know anything was wrong, maybe there wasn’t, the scheduled service light came on. Also, it’s a diesel, I specifically excluded diesels from my claims, but I think the fact it’s even a diesel strengthens my case, not diminishes it. Also, the poster never claimed there was any damage at all to the motor, just something about a ‘clang in the top of the engine’. Has a clang ever occurred in an engine, especially a diesel, that was not related to bad oil? Then the thread continued a bunch of smug judgement of stupidity(sound familiar?). If someone has OCD tendencies towards the ‘cleanliness’ of their oil, and oil pan apparently, that’s fine, I’m more interested in function and how many dollars/mile it cost me to drive a car, including the original cost of the car. So that’s why I want to find a way for people to KNOW when to change the oil, not just guess, as every preventative maintenance program requires.
So that leads me to some of the above analogies. Polio and ice cream? I didn’t know anyone theorized that polio was associated with ice cream, but if there was a reasonable assumption of a connection I suppose your experiment would have to be analyzed. I’m guessing they didn’t do that. I have theorized however that oil is related to engine wear, do you disagree? The way to test my theory is to try not changing the oil and see what happens, instead of just guessing or repeating hear-say, or claiming that a certain measured level of some molecule or acidity WILL cause some predictable level of effect with no evidence, so I’m 30 years, and maybe 400k miles into that experiment. Do you think I should try another? I think a more appropriate analogy with polio would be if the polio vaccine manufacturer told everyone that they needed to buy their vaccine 4 times a year, and if you don’t your a (insert any of the implied insults above). No one wants polio, and no one can argue that a polio shot is good, or wants to be a (), so everyone does it, very few people get polio, that means it must be working right?
Although I’m guessing you had polio vaccine at some time, have you paid for your polio shot in past 4 months? You (). I’m guessing you have not. Why not just get the shots for ‘cheap insurance’?
The flat earth analogy seems more straight forwardly incorrect, you have the positions switched, you are saying the earth is flat and you won’t go near the edge because only stupid people do, I’m saying I went went looking for the edge because I didn’t believe their/your… belief, even though it was written all over and repeated regularly, and found a new world, and I’m back here to tell you about it.
I am not advocating that anyone do what I’m doing, I’m trying to find the edge so that I know how close to get, I appreciate the few posts from others that have included useful info for those like me that don’t seek necessarily answers, but solutions.
ttfn
I have been reading this thread as it has unfolded and it has been amusing. The OP seems to have been bored and found a good place to drop in and run up some points. But as far as oil deteriorating in engines it seems curious that no one has mentioned the ash that results from oil reaching its flash point. I have opened engines and found an accumulation of ash that resembled oil-dri caked under the heat crossover on V-6s and V-8s and even accumulating in the pan to the point that the oil pickup screen would be blocked. The small particles are likely a significant part of the sludge that accumulated throughout poorly maintained engines.
Ok. I, for one, and finished trying to confuse you with the facts. You’re not asking questions, and you don’t want answers. So this was all a waste.
Wow. Hmmm. I lived back then. Polio was an epidemic and the vaccine was administered in sugar cubes by public health employees. You didn’t pay for it because it was a public health crises and everyone was afraid to be in public. Its still around, just not in the US thanks to public health so better get your shots. While I think vaccines for dreadful dieseases are not the place to test your theories, I also think you should test it on your lawn mower instead of your car.
He didn’t say it was a diesel engine, but that it sounded like a diesel-it was that bad. An engine with top end noise with only 60+K on it, does not have long to live. Maybe the difference is you think 60 or 100K is a lot of miles and I think that’s nothing for a modern car.