If you wait long enough, engine oil turns acidic (from sulfur, sulfuric acid forms) As the acid gets stronger, the bearings dissolve first…I have seen this in a failed engine that was not maintained…Also, I have seen an oil pick-up screen FLOAT in a solvent tank, the screen 99% obstructed with hard carbon deposits…The screen had to be heated with a torch to remove the carbon. Solvent would not touch it…
There is a limit to how much contamination motor oil can hold in suspension…When that limit is reached, the contaminants fall out of solution and deposit themselves wherever they can…There is a limit as to how long this process can continue. Those who live in hot, dry climates can play this game a lot longer than those who live in the North country…But sooner or later, your luck runs out…
Now, lets move on to viscosity change (usually thickening but sometimes thinning) that occurs as the oil becomes more and more contaminated when change intervals are completely ignored…
Trolls are people who have vivid imaginations and make up fantasies and post these fantasies as fact and then enjoy debating people who are silly enough to respond to the fantasy…
I consider a troll to be someone posting on numerous websites to try to sell a product. We get that here occasionally.
Compression boosting additives are a scam. As a matter of fact, it’s critical that the surfaces in a new cylinder be “honed”, which is a process that creates scatches in the cylinder wall in a controlled pattern and depth. Thes scratches allow oil to stay on the walls (in the scratches) after the wiper ring goes by, to allow lubrication for the compression rings. If an additive filled in the scratches on the wall, the engine would fail prematurely.
Not subjected to severe conditions? A stock engine’s cylinders can get up to over 2,500F in spots. The piston goes up and down the cylinder wall probably an average of 3000 times every minute, including cycling up & down as you accelerate and decelerate. So, if you drive the car for 200,000 miles at an average of 60 mph that equal 12 million cycles, 12 million trips up and down the cylinder walls, half of them being under the pressure of an explosion in the cylinder. And the main, rod, and crank bearings are loaded sideways by every explosion as well as every time they have to stop the flying piston at the end of its stroke. At what level do you consider the loads to be severe?
Others here have already written excellent dissertations on the stresses to the oil itself, so I’ll skip repeating them.
And then there’re the engineers who test, test, test, design, and test again. Do you, Hobie, believe that the recommendations they make are selected from the air rather than testing and analysis?
You’ve been postulating this theorum since 1984. Allow me to ask if you’ve found s single person, incliuding engineers and chemists, that supports your theorum. Can the whole world be wrong? Can all of the engineering and chemistry theory taught in the engineering schools be wrong?
I didn’t see any of those. What is your definition of a personal attack? When someone questions your actual base of knowledge? When someone thinks your “theories” are half baked because of that? That’s not a personal attack.
The fact that you continue to believe that engine failures don’t occur from failure to change oil just speaks to your narrow base of experience.
The theory underlying the OP’s maintenance practice reminds me of the hippie-girl character in Louis Malle’s film Atlantic City. At one point in the film, this touchingly naive girl tells us that, “I don’t believe in gravity”.
In a similar fashion, if the OP wishes to believe that sludging does not begin after about 10k miles, or that oil does not become acidic over the long term, he is entitled to think that way. However, his beliefs would be just as off-base as that hippie girl who does not believe in gravity.
Oil is 75 % base stock and 25% additives. These additives are used up over a certain length of time, about 30,000 miles or so, and you are left with sludge, base oil, acids, and many other nasty chemicals that stay in the crankcase if the oil is not drained.
The Franz oil filer mentioned by Caddyman REQUIRED you to change the toilet roll filter every 1000 miles, and its container held 1 quart of oil!!! The guy in the ad said he never changed oil in 100,000 miles. Pure lies! With 5 quarts in the crankcase, he changed oil every 5000 miles actually!!! That’s 20 oil chnages over 100,000 miles. That’s how he got to 100,000 miles without an oil change.
I don’t know what OP is asking or trying to prove. The base oil can overheat and carbonize, making it useless as a lubricant. I also loads up with all sorts of contaminants that won’t filter put. Its acid number or base number will go out of range.
A typical modern car with a tight engine that does not use much oil will typically seize up at about 60,000 miles if the oil is not changed, just topped up.
Docnick’s post basically states the reasons I think this guy is a troll. My BIL uses Amsoil with 15,000 mile changes and 20,000 mile Amsoil filters. His engine is a mess. I remember being at a Saturn dealer service shop where they had pictures of an engine with the valve cover and some other components removed. It was brought in for its first oil change at 20,000 miles. It was a mess. Everything was covered with ¼" of black sludge. I don’t believe that it is possible for an engine to run as long as the OP states without the oil and filter being changed with some regularity. BTW, Caddyman nailed my use of the term “troll” perfectly.
I just don’t buy into this scenario at all and we’re expected to believe that this is not applicable to one car only; it’s about multiple vehicles over a span of a quarter century.
It would be interesting to know how many engines you have torn into, overhauled or repaired, etc.
I have had a half dozen friends that never changed the oil in their cars. All of these friends claimed that the rest of us were spending too much money on oil changes. Two of these friends had DKWs and four of them had Saabs. This was back in the late 1950s and early 1960s and the engines in these cars were 2 stroke engines. I think, however, that they did spend as much on oil as the rest of us with our 4 stroke engines.
Since I shouldn’t take troll as a personal attack - I’m not a ‘car guy’, I don’t have any affection for my car(s), I drive them until I get sick of the things that stop working, then they go away, sometimes as scrap, but the engines have always ran fine. I have never torn one of my engines apart, I’ve never had one break down, and I wouldn’t do that sort of thing anyway. But, I came to this forum for an answer to my question, I appreciate the guys that have addressed it. After checking out http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ a little more I see there are places to send used oil for analysis, I think that might be what will help answer my question, and maybe yours. I don’t see where they are sending their samples though, or how much it costs. Any pointers? I’d like to send them a sample of oil that has probably 40k miles, over those miles I probably added 6-7 quarts of oil, of various brands and viscosity and a container or two of stop leak additive, and I don’t know what was in there when I bought it as a lease return from an auction. Maybe I’ll start a thread over there, they seem more interested in numbers and less interested in belief, although I’m sure they are as smugly judgmental as some on this board.
For posterity - Not that I feel like I need to prove that I really don’t change my oil and don’t suffer any negative consequences, I’m just trying to get a question answered, not change anyone, but it doesn’t seem like it would be that hard to accept. Have you ever seen an engine, or any mechanical device (that has not been overheated or had water leak into the oil) that has seized while it still has oil?
I used to know people that bought older cars and never changed the oil on them but they drove mostly around town and I never saw one get past 30,000 miles on their ownership before it was time for the junkyard.Most of the people I knew that seized engines had it happen because of low oil. Low oil kills most lawnmowers and not changing the oil leads to wear and oilburning, thus low oil.
In my cars, here in the Buffalo area we do mostly short trip driving in the winter and the oil actually starts rising on the dipstick from gasoline dilution. Gasoline is a lousy lubricant.
I don’t know where the OP has had his head for 30 years if he hasn’t heard about oil sludging, but I can guess.
You keep saying you just want your question answered while you insult the board for either not giving you the “ok” nod or not answering your question - as if you came here with one. So is it as simple as “What does oil break down into that is not slippery?”
Is that “the” question?
If so, then the answer is that the “slipperiness” isn’t the primary issue with the health or longevity of an engine. Your whole question and line of thought seems to be that if oil remains “slippery” then all is well. Furthermore, what kind of answer do you want? A chemistry answer?
There’s some very concrete info on what oil turns into when it isn’t changed.
And sludge doesn’t touch the other stuff that people have mentioned.
You see - you’ve been given lots and lots of info from very knowledgeable people. Yet you just ignore it and assume - I guess - that no one here knows what they’re talking about. Your whole approach and stubbornness in the face of being obviously ill-informed and wrong is what brings out the use of the term “troll.” You’re behaving like one.
“Have you ever seen an engine, or any mechanical device (that has not been overheated or had water leak into the oil) that has seized while it still has oil?”
Sure, when I worked at a dodge dealer every two weeks a seized or knocking engine would come into the shop. The customer couldn’t produce two oil change receipts in the last 30,000 miles. Sometimes we would line up to look at an oil filter on a knocking engine with 35,000 mile that was labeled “Factory Installed” and someone would ask “is anyone that stupid?”
I changed the oil in my 75+ year old father in laws truck one time after he had misread the odometer and oil reminder sticker. He thought he’d only driven the truck about 1K miles since his last oil change and I knew he drove more than that so checked and according to the oil change reminder he was about 10K miles overdue for a change. I went and bought new oil and a filter for it and when I drained the oil there were literally chunks of sludge about the size of a BB coming out of the oil pan and were very gritty feeling. I’m surprised the oil pump didn’t pick up the chunks and fill the pick up screen to the point there was no oil pressure. I don’t know the past oil consumption of the truck before this, but I know afterwards I checked his oil a few times and found it to be 2+ quarts low.
As I said in my previous post my '88 Escort even with regular oil changes has formed a sludge problem over the past few years. Last spring the oil pressure gauge was reading near 0 PSI, I pulled the oil pan off and there was some sludge in the bottom of the oil pan even after draining the oil out. I removed the oil pump pick up tube and sprayed nearly a full 14 oz. can of brake cleaner though it before I finally got all the sludge out. If you could have seen the mess coming out of the pick up tube I think you’d rethink the no change theory
. The oil may still look good on the dipstick and still feel slippery, but as oil is used the viscosity changes, there are all types of contaminants in it and even though the motor doesn’t seize these contaminants get into the bearings and other critical areas greatly accelerating wear.
I’ll admit I had an old work car one time that was in poor condition that wasn’t worth putting money into to make the repairs it needed to stop the leaks and oil burning, it leaked/burned a quart of oil about every 300 miles. I was actually pouring oil that I drained from my better cars at oil changes back into it for topping off oil and didn’t change the oil the last 30K miles I owned it, but in those 30K miles I noticed an increase in oil consumption and the car smoked lots more than it had before. I would have hated to see the oil that would have drained out of it!!
I buy cars for the long haul and drive them about as long as they’re able to go under their own power. I do 98% of my own repairs so if something wears out all it costs me is the price of the part and my time. I have no doubt that my '88 Escort wouldn’t have lasted over 500K miles if the oil had never been changed and likely the block wouldn’t have been in good enough condition to warrant a rebuild. I’ve never rebuilt an engine and don’t have the necessary equipment to do it, therefore I know my oil changes have more than paid off.
As far as your question about slippery-ness, I can feel a difference in how the oil feels from the time it’s put in new until it’s drained out for an oil change. How slippery it is isn’t all that’s involved. The viscosity changes over time, and all the combustion by products affect the oils lubrication properties. If it were only about how slick the oil is it could be pumped straight out the ground and used without having to go through a refining process.
As for an oil analysis I think the cost is about $25-$30. I’ve never had one done on my oil, but from hearing other people talk Blackstone Labs is about the best. I’m sure if you do a web search you can find information. I think they will send you a container to send the sample in if requested. I’d use the $25-$30 for an oil change I’m sure you need it and your engine will thank you.
This pic (of poor quality I admit) was taken a couple of months ago. That’s my hand and the stuff in it is not chunks of coal to be thrown into the boiler. That’s engine oil from the lifter valley of a somewhat low miles motor that did get the oil changed; just not very regularly.
ok4450, I wonder if you had used full-synthetic on your Escort, if you would have had any sludging at all, even at the impressive mileage you have on it. A few years back I had to do the valve cover gaskets on my 1994 Chrysler. The car has been run on full synthetic Mobil-1 since even before I got it. With the valve covers off, there was not a speck of sludge or any kind of buildup, and this was at around 230K miles. I wish I’d taken a picture. It could have been a motor right off the assembly line. The car still uses very little oil between changes, maybe 1/2 quart.
hobieTcat as mentioned engine oil is used for more than lubrication in many newer engines and therefore they can be more sensitive to its properties. I have consistently followed the OLM on my Trailblazer since new. It has often gone more than 10k miles (mostly expressway miles). At the longest interval, it began to have driveability issue due to the oil’s inability to properly drive the valvetrain adjustment. A CEL was logged and it was very noticeable. I left the OLM alone and changed the oil. Problem disappeared and OLM activated about 100 miles later.
