Thanks, @Caddyman, for bringing the discussion back to cars.
VW USA’s head is testifying to Congress, said that for about 430K of the 482K vehicles, a software fix won’t work. New hardware will be needed too. Most VW TDIs will need costly retrofit with new catalytic converter and possible urea fluid injection.
VERY expensive, I think. New cat plus injection? It’ll be more than a thousand per car, easy.
I’ve been trying to understand how new hardware is needed, when the cheat device was completely software. My understanding is that all of these cars pass the emissions tests with the cheat device enabled. So disable the software and the car should stop polluting, surely? Is it because the performance would then be so bad that every owner would demand their money back?
Is it because the performance would then be so bad that every owner would demand their money back?
Yes…This story is just beginning for VW…
Early on it was determined that the diesels could not meet emissions standards without the Adblue. The cost was estimated at $300 per car. Because they were already tightening their budgets, at the highest level it was determined to not go with the urea system.
I read an article last night but it was so late I absolutely cannot recall if it was the Times or the Post or a German paper. At any rate it dealt with the concerns of the people of Wolfsburg. From the article and the comments though, the people were fully behind VW, thought the standards were unreasonably high, that others were doing the same thing, that Americans drove cars that were too big, and that the world needed VW and was the best company around. They aren’t exactly hanging their heads in shame and they will survive one way or another. Hey, I’m half German. I understand a little. On the other hand, the police did raid the headquarters three weeks later to get any relevant documents.
I noticed that, at the time this story broke, ALL the automakers’ stocks nose-dived. Since then, they’ve been up: I own a little Ford, and they’ve had eight straight positive days, and have picked up 10% market cap.
Could be leaking news ahead of earnings report this month–but I think it more likely that everybody got hit on the VW news because “Gee, I wonder if my company has any skeletons in the closet?” and the subsequent winning streak is “Ok, I guess we’re in the clear!”
My understanding is that all of these cars pass the emissions tests with the cheat device enabled.
Because the cheat device is just giving a FALSE reading of what the emissions really is. Software alone may not take care of this problem.
“They aren’t exactly hanging their heads in shame…”
Well, after the existence of Auschwitz, Buchenwald, and the other death camps was revealed to the world, most Germans–including the ones who were civilian employees of the death camps–denied any knowledge of what had been going on there. Others, when confronted by incontrovertible evidence managed to rationalize the extermination of a race with lines such as, “I think that some of them charged high prices in their stores”.
Because allegedly high prices certainly justify genocide, I suppose…
Trust me…Germans are very good at…following orders…denial…and rationalization.
If they can deny, deny, deny the existence of genocide, and then try to rationalize it, surely it isn’t difficult for them to rationalize something as relatively trivial as emissions violations.
“Hey, I’m half German.”
I’m 3/4 German, so I believe that I have some insight into the mindset of the German people.
So…The world is waiting to see if the 450,000 cars in the U.S. will get an adBlue (urea) kit or a software change or both…For sure, the car mags will be lined up to road test a recalled car and compare it’s performance with one still using the “defeat” software…
VW brass is trying to blame this on “a few rogue engineers” …You know that story is not going to fly…
Personally, I’m waiting to see what the repercussions will be in Europe. They have a far larger proportion of diesels than we have here in the U.S.
Other car makers have done the same thing as VW. Why not charge them criminally and imprison some people…
Just one click and paste example with Honda doing the same thing.
In 1996, Honda reached an agreement with the EPA to extend the warranties and offer free services for 1.6 million 1995 Civics and 1996–1997 model year Acuras, Accords, Civics, Preludes, and Odysseys, because Honda had disabled an engine misfire warning light that would have otherwise directed drivers to seek repairs for the misfires. Honda was required to spend a total of $267 million on the warranties, service, pollution reduction projects, and $12.6 million in civil penalties.
Subaru covered up a steering rack problem that would lead to sudden speed wobbles. I personally watched a number of those modifications done by a factory rep off the record. Since I casually knew the rep from another place I started poking questions at him over this and after some stonewalling he smiled and nodded yes when I asked if the entire exercise was to keep the Feds in the dark by not leaving a paper trail.
Why not jail him and any superiors who approved this? What’s more dangerous; higher emissions or loss of vehicle control when someone panics and who is lied to about the real reason their car is on the rack for the modification?
The latest European sales figures seem to suggest that there has been little if any decline in sales of diesels there.
“Honda had disabled an engine misfire warning light that would have otherwise directed drivers to seek repairs for the misfires.”
This is slightly off-topic . . .
Many of the large trucks I work on are class 4 or larger. That means they’re not OBD2 compliant. As such, a misfire will NEVER turn on the check engine light. It kind of sucks for the vehicle operators, but it’s legal
"Because the cheat device is just giving a FALSE reading of what the emissions really is. Software alone may not take care of this problem. "
From what I understand, the cheat device senses the vehicle is being emissions tested, and alters the engine’s operating parameters, so that it passes the tailpipe test. And under normal driving conditions, the operating parameters go back to their usual polluting ways
From what I understand, the testing device is taking an actual, real-time, measurement
The way you worded it, it sounded like the testing device was being hacked
Is that what you meant?
From what I understand, when the vehicle is being emissions tested, that is the ONLY time it actually meets the emissions standards. And all other times, it doesn’t
Apparently . . . and I may be misinterpreting . . . VW literally designed the cars to only pass the emissions test, without regard to the emissions that occur during regular driving
Right now . . . and I"m not blaming you . . . I’m hearing conflicting information. Some say if the cheat software was eliminated, the cars would be low on power, but would be in compliance under all driving conditions. And some say even with no cheat software, the cars would not be in compliance under all driving conditions
Is the urea kit the proposed solution to lower the emissions, without drastically lowering vehicle power, in order to legally comply under all driving conditions . . . ?
From what I understand, the cheat device senses the vehicle is being emissions tested, and alters the engine's operating parameters, so that it passes the tailpipe test.
Yes…but that’s NOT while under load…so the test is moot. I’m not saying software isn’t the solution…just that it might not be.
From what I understand, when the vehicle is being emissions tested, that is the ONLY time it actually meets the emissions standards. And all other times, it doesn't
That’s my understanding of it.
Taken directly from the web-site below
Since 2009, we now know, Volkswagen had been inserting intricate code into its vehicle software that tracked steering and pedal movements. When those movements suggested that the car was being tested for nitrogen oxide emissions in a lab, the car automatically turned its pollution controls on. The rest of the time, the pollution controls switched off.
I agree that much of the information coming out right now is conflicting. It may be a while before all the investigations are done and the truth becomes known. Perhaps if there are senate oversight committee hearings a lot more detail will become public.
There probably will be hearings. The function of the executive branch is to enforce the laws that the congress passes, and for this they use regulatory agencies headed by “cabinet posts” answering to the president, but the senate retains oversight of these agencies.
CR has found a way to make these car think there in cheat mode, then has run fuel milage, and acceleration test. Here is the Video https://youtu.be/zUPnAA_Y3XI
Har har har, he called it a “dynanometer.”
“Yes…but that’s NOT while under load…so the test is moot.”
How is the test moot?
A dyno emissions test DOES put the vehicle under load, if that’s what you were referring to
A 2-speed idle test . . . for trucks too large to be dyno tested, for example . . . it could be argued that test doesn’t put the vehicle under load, because it’s not being driven. It’s actually idle speed and approximately 2500rpm. Hence, the term 2-speed idle, or TSI
Is that test moot?
How about this . . . the more recent OBD2 plug in “smog test” does not put the vehicle under load
Is that test also moot?
I’m not attacking you . . . I’m just asking questions
The test is MOOT because the software is able to detect if there it’s an emissions test and thus turns on the pollution controls. How is it a valid test if the software then turns the pollution control off when it doesn’t detect a test? The test is suppose to work is real world situation. Driving in TEST MODE all the time is not what I consider real-world situation.