GM or Ford employment is only PART of number of employees…The parts they use is still an issue…which you seem to ignore.
As I pointed out earlier…which you HATE because it proves that GM and Ford are outsourcing more and more…
2007
2010
MikeInNH -
I don’t ignore parts at all. Their domestic content %s are FAR higher than Toyota’s or Hondas on average.
I’ve done this analysis for you countless times before, but here it goes again:
Let’s compare GM to Toyota. Their november sales are available here
http://investor.gm.com/sales-production/
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/november+2011+sales+chart.htm
Domestic content % are available here:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+(AALA)+Reports
But to save you, here are their November sales and domestic content % for each model - 2011 content used when available.
GM:
Enclave 3924 (75%)
Lacrosse 4008 (57%)
Lucerne 824 (76%)
Regal 2120 (60%)
Verano 4 (60%)
CTS 3804 (65%)
DTS 264 (76%)
Escalade 2247 (65%)
SRX 4736 (21%)
STS 94 (65%)
Avalanche 1857 ( 65%)
Aveo 30 (2%)
Camaro 5127 (66%)
Caprice 167 (5%)
Cobalt 1 (70%)
Colorado 1978 (75%)
Corvette 910 (75%)
Cruze 13238 (45%)
Equinox 14936 (66%)
Express 5387 (80%)
HHR 23 (37%)
Impala 10851 (77%)
Malibu 10269 (75%)
Silverado 34251 (61%)
Sonic 4496 (47%)
Suburban 5787 (65%)
Tahoe 8401 (65%)
Traverse 7144 (75%)
Volt 1139 (40%)
Acadia 4886 (75%)
Canyon 462 (75%)
Savana 732 (80%)
Sierra 11971 (61%)
Terrain 5654 (66%)
Yukon 5765 (65%)
Toyota:
Yaris 5604 (0%)
Corolla 16115 (35%)
Prius 15208 (0%)
Camry 23440 (80%)
Avalon 2188 (80%)
xD 773 (0%)
xB 1202 (0%)
tC 1578 (0%)
CT 1759 (0%)
HS 207 (0%)
IS 2676 (0%)
ES 4731 (0%)
GS 206 (0%)
LS 954 (0%)
LFA 4 (0%)
Rav4 11330 (60%)
FJ 989 (0%)
Venza 2610 (75%)
Highlander 8369 (70%)
4Runner 3696 (0%)
Sienna 7910 (75%)
Sequoia 1304 (80%)
Land Cruiser 134 (0%)
Tacoma 9739 (70%)
Tundra 6313 (80%)
RX 7580 (65%)
GX 1076 (0%)
LX 265 (0%)
Now, multiply the sales by the % domestic content, and add up the resultants for each manufacturer. Divide that by the total number of vehicles sold, and you’ll get an average domestic content for each maker. The results:
GM : 62.9%
Toyota: 46.8%
Those numbers have not changed significantly in over a decade (and some of the numbers above are changing for 2012 - the Camry drops to 75%, the Cruze goes up to 60%, etc). By pointing to cars.com again, all you’re doing is showing how unreliable that silly list is - because the changes are mostly due to small fluctuations in % domestic content and large fluctuations in SALES numbers. For the record, the first year cars.com listed the Camry #1, there were FORTY vehicles on the market with higher domestic content. Unless they change their methods (which wouldn’t be unusual), the Camry will be ineligible this year as its combined domestic content between all variants will be below 75%. If cars.com allows them to breakout the hybrid separately, the camry will remain eligible. Meanwhile, the F-series is eligible again this year, so it should leap back to #1.
You can twist your stats to believe anything you want…go ahead…Camry has MORE American parts then the Ford F150…Your stats penalize Toyota for being more efficient.
The FACTS still remain…Toyota’s and Honda’s use of American parts has GROWN…while GM and Ford has shrunk. You now want to start adding in based on the number of cars sold. Again you change the rules.
Play with the FACTS all you want…
MikeInNH-
Again, your perception of FACTS is off…
Toyota’s average domestic content % in 2007: 44%
GM’s average domestic content % in 2007 : 61%
These domestic content percentages have NOTHING to do with efficiency. Efficiency WOULD impact the number of employees per car, but as shown in the Harbour Report for 2008 (which you refuse to acknowledge, but it is one of the most widely respected industry sources), there is very little to no difference in productivity. What small difference (under 10% now) there is does NOT explain why Ford has over twice as many employees in the US than Toyota while selling only 20% more vehicles. You’re simply trying to explain away lack of employees by a false claim of efficiency.
You’re also stuck on cars.com as your only “evidence” when it is a clearly flawed study.
And for 2012, the F-series has more domestic content than the Camry again, as it has risen to 75% across all models, while the Camry is at 75% for non-hybrids, and 60% for hybrids, pulling its net total below 75% across all models, and disqualifying it for cars.com’s list, unless they change the rules and allow Toyota to break out the hybrids separately.
THAT is a FACT.
Keep arguing with yourself eraser…keep re-interrupting the facts anyway you want…still doesn’t change anything…GM and Fords domestic content is going down (has been for 30 years)…Toyota and Honda is going up…Twist it any way to make you feel good…Glad I could help.
This disagreement IMO will never be solved satisfactorily as there are several ways of determining domestic content. The federal govt uses three different methods. Some include Canada, some don’t. These determinations are also at the whim of the parts supplier themselves who subcontract out as well…and on and on.
Exactly dagosa…That’s why I don’t buy a car on where it’s made. Saying I only buy American made cars or the car that uses the MOST American made parts is just plain STUPID. They are all buying parts from all over the world. Cars are assembled all over the world. And parts and cars made in Canada or Mexico are NOT American made…although some people think so.
The GM vehicles from the 60’s and 70’s I owned were all about 99.9% made in America (I would say 100%, but there might have been a few bulbs made in China). My Vega was an exception…The transmission in mine was made by Opel.
Surely can’t say GM is even close to 100% made in America. If you count parts, and final assembly…plus you don’t know where much of the raw material comes from in many of those parts. China and South Africa import a lot of steel to the US.
MikeInNH -
Good grief - I’ve shown you time and again that your claims of GM and Ford domestic content going down while Honda and Toyota have gone up simply isn’t true. It isn’t “re-interrupting the facts” to actually PRESENT THE FACTS to disprove your ridiculous claims.
Good grief - I’ve shown you time and again that your claims of GM and Ford domestic content going down while Honda and Toyota have gone up simply isn’t true. It isn’t “re-interrupting the facts” to actually PRESENT THE FACTS to disprove your ridiculous claims.
No you haven’t…but keep dreaming…your a legend in you own mind.
MikeInNH -
What is disputable - the facts I have given come STRAIGHT off of NHTSA’s website and the manufacturer’s OWN DATA!
Here’s another one for you - go to JAMA’s website. They show their US production and US-bound imports by year. The ratio of Japanese vehicles built in the US to those imported into the US PEAKED in 1996, and has dropped by over 30% since then.
As I have stated MANY times, the gap simply isn’t closing and hasn’t been for nearly 15 years.
Oh, and that JAMA data - it also includes production for other manufacturers at joint venture facilities.
So they’re counting in Ford Mustang production at Flat Rock, MI and Chevrolet Prizm / Pontiac Vibe production in NUMMI…
Yup…your ALWAYS RIGHT…eraser…and everyone is ALWAYS wrong…
As I said…a legend in your own mind…
Yeah. And show ONE of those claims that is incorrect. I’ve provided you with hard data, and your responses are simply juvenile denials. LOOK at the AALA data on NHTSA’s site. LOOK at the sales numbers. LOOK at JAMA’s own data. Your claims are simply false - while the Japanese manufacturers boosted their dependence on US production and parts through the mid 90s, they’ve been slipping since then, the US makers have held their ground, and your claims are that the opposite is the case.
What-ever-you say eraser…you’re ALWAYS right…I bow down to your superiority…NOT…
Ok…
And I’ll bow to your “NO, that can’t be true because it isn’t what I believe!” mentality despite all the facts. It clearly is a superior way to examine data.
GM threw a pile of money into western Tennessee to build Saturns, That plant went down with GM but isn’t in the revival. Can the Japanese do what GM couldn’t? So far it seems they can.
Rod -
GM IS reopening the Spring Hill plant in Tennessee… They never actually closed the entire plant, they just shut down vehicle assembly operations while continuing to engines and components. Now they’re going to build the Equinox and midsize vehicles there.
The importance of the fact that China and South Africa import a lot of steel to the US cannot be overestimated.
It’s all about capitalism in it’s truest sense IMO. It is not true capitalism for me if I let extraneous factors enter into a decision about buying the best product for my personal needs. If you do let these factors enter, it becomes a political decision. For several years, I bought cars that were only made in America, regardless of brand.
I now pay no attention to brand and domestic content. If I insisted using That as a factor, I eliminate a lot of good cars with both American and foreign name plates. The really good Fusion and improved GM intermediates are on market mainly as an answer to the really good Accords and .Camrys. Now they must improve as well. Viva le difference !
Besides, why is it any worse for Toyota to send profits and pay taxes to it’s homeland then it is for American corps to relocate abroad for the same or similar advantages.
Littlemouse…exactly. This makes domestic content discussions more about politics when subcontractors may or may not use foreign steel. Who ever wins a political discussion ?
We are going to set a record with this thread by the looks of things. Political and philosophical arguments go on forever.
Like the majority of posters, I do not really care where something is made, as long as it has the quality and durablility I want and we can get service for it. Every year I run a tally with respect to country of origin of the things we buy. So far 63% of all items we bought, ranging from an electronic piano to telephones, answering machines, kitchen appliances has been made in China. The second source was Korea, followed by the US and Canada. Mexico was dead last in spite of Ross Perot’s warning of the “giant sucking sound” from Mexico when NAFTA was enacted. The things we buy from Mexico are Corona beer and tequila.
We bought a concrete “Designer” bird bath that was made in the US. A top quality lawn sprinkler made by the inventor of the oscellating sprinkler was made in China. Our other bird bath is cast aluminum and made in China.
Business has globilized now to the point where the world’s second largest manufacturer of pickup trucks is …Thailand. Yes, that Ford Ranger truck which every red blooded young US driver wants is made in Thailand.
One item that is still unabashedly American is my wife’s table top radio made by Bose. It also cost $750! And our 20 year old Black & Decker coffee maker was one of the last ones made in the US.
I also have Florsheim shoes made in India, “Italian” shoes made in Peru and Germany. My runners are made in China, Thailand, India. My Hush Puppies are made in Hong Kong and so on.