In Minnesota we call them “shoulders”, not break down lanes. At any rate the manual didn’t say to slam on the brakes and stop in the traffic lane which is what she would have to do with no shoulder. Better to damage an engine than kill yourself or others. I’d agree though to drive and be happy.
When the oil light goes on it is because it hit the low oil pressure threshold to turn the light on (maybe 7-15 lbs). So when the light goes on, there is still some pressure there. Plus, there was oil pooled under the car which means that it was never completely out of oil. I can’t explain the poor performance but don’t think anymore damage was done than in a cold start.
I’d go with what the dealer suggests. One mile at 40 mph w/low oil most likely wouldn’t outright kill the engine. And there’s a good chance the remaining oil lubricated the parts enough so very little damage was done.
Did it overheat? That’s one way to tell. If you didn’t see the engine overheat light come on, or the guage go all the way to the top, that’s good. Probably very little damage done.
Changing the engine may seem the safe thing to do. But changing out the engine has it’s own problems. You’re probably best to keep the engine that came w/the car. Remember, this is the same dealer that his service dept can’t even change the oil correctly. You want them to replace your engine? I don’t think so. The dealer says he’ll upgrade your warranty, which he should, since it was his fault. You should be covered. But get it all in writing.
If this happens again, you notice the oil light come on, if at all possible stop immediately when the oil light starts to flash on. Even if on the side of the road. Then phone a tow truck w/your cell phone. The dealership will complain less to pay a tow fee that provide a new engine.
Just my opinion, but the engine is damaged goods even if it appears to run fine at the moment. A badly damaged engine can run fine so appearances can be deceiving.
The oil pressure light means zero oil pressure. Any oil film on the crankshaft journals (the first thing to receive damage) will be wiped away in seconds along with some of the bearing overlayment.
Cam journals will be the last thing to get damaged so this was gone about just bassackwards.
What should have been done is to drop the oil pan and pull some bearing caps, preferably ones that are located the fartherest distance from the oil pump.
Odds are if this was done one would find some copper showing and this means trouble brewing.
A compression test should also have been run because cylinders are lubricated by splash from the crankshaft. No oil pressure means no splash and like the bearings any oil film is wiped away in seconds.
There’s no way in the world the dealer can state this engine is “fine”. That’s the brush-off line and they’re hoping you will get antsy and trade the vehicle off or that it gets whacked in a collision and heads to the boneyard before any future problem surfaces.
Keith, the RAV4 does not use a typical spin on oil filter. It uses a replaceable cartridge. The reusable housing seals with two different sized o-rings in two different places. Evidently, someone was careless when they installed one (or both) of them.
Remember, Based On The Information That Was Presented,
This Is A 2009 Vehicle With 40,000 Miles.
Owner Had All Oil Changes Done At Dealership.
The Dealer Employee Screwed Up An Oil Change And Failed To Check His Work.
On The Way Home The Car Started Having Running Problems.
The Oil Pressure Warning Light Illuminated Because The Engine Ran Low On Oil.
The Driver Stopped As Soon As She Felt That She Safely Could (As Per Owner’s Manual).
The Vehicle Was Towed To The Dealer.
What’s all the debating ? In my opinion, this car owner is entitled to whatever engine remedy he chooses, including a new engine. The dealer is fortunate to get off this easy. With careless mechanics (or oil change employees) chances are good that sooner or later somebody could be injured or worse and then things could get very expensive.
The dealer should use this opportunity to “tighten up” work quality. Oh, and let’s not forget a loaner car while the vehicle is put back in its former condition.
It is close to insanity to tell a person to stop in the traveled lane on a busy highway if the car can move at all. Motors may be expensive, but they are much cheaper than hospital stays or even funerals. She did good.
irlandes, I would agree with you, but I have not seen many “busy highways” that don’t have a shoulder. I live on a road with no shoulder, but it is hardly a “busy highway”. Maybe we get 10-15 vehicles per hour. I think it would be safe to stop on.
I do know of a few busy roads around here that have stretches without a shoulder, but these are usually only a 100 yards or so, and there are driveways available.
If it was a busy road with no shoulders and no place to pull over, then I stand corrected. No engine is worth someone’s life.
After further discussions with the service manager, we said one of three options would make us satisfied Toyota customers:
One we keep the car with the current engine but:
We want the cost of the extended warranty refunded to us plus interest at the rate my wife had paid. We want the cost of the oil change refunded. We want recommended service paid for during the time we own the car. We want an additional oil change at no cost in 30 days. We want a loaner car at no charge during any service in excess of a typical oil change. We want oil samples sent to the lab for particulate testing at 3-months, 6-months, and 9 months. We want an offer of trade-in value equal to no less than loan payoff valid for 12-months. We want an offer of engine replacement if any signs of degradation are present over the term of the extended warranty.
Two we trade in the car and the dealer pay off our loan (about a $2k difference between owed and blue book (trade in value). We would then purchase another car from them.
I think 1A. You keep the car and pending an oil analysis that shows damage, they’ll cover it till 100K. I think instead of all the demands, if they would inspect the bearings for damage, and explain why the engine stumbled first, that would provide a clearer idea if you were damaged or not. Just sayin’, you’ve got to show you have been damaged somehow, and so far the jury is out on that. Still have trouble with why the engine started stumbling so guess I would want an explanation on that but I’m still having trouble with an oil light switch that doesn’t go off until zero. I’d want to check the manual on that.
You post this as if you have already presented these 3 options to the service manager.
Is this so and if so, what was his response? Just curious.
Which do I think they dealer would choose base on your question? Possibly Number 3 for the following reasons.
They replace the engine. With what, a 140k miles salvage yard engine that they may get a good price on? (Many yards cut dealers a little slack on prices.)
The labor cost to them, which may be zero or heavily discounted. This all depends on a number of factors such as whodunit as far as botching the job.
If the oil change was botched by a low wage lube guy and not a regular mechanic it could be that a regular mechanic may get coerced into changing the engine out for half price.
If the oil change was botched by a regular mechanic then said mechanic will probably be changing the engine out for free unless he’s an in-bred relative of the service manager.
Your current engine is damaged goods even if it does appear to run fine. The oil light was on and that means zero oil pressure. Consider the following.
Your engine bearings ride on a film of oil about .002 thick, when the engine is NOT running. When running cylinder pressures are around 1500-2000 PSI and oil pressure (if good) is about 50 PSI give or take. That alone squashes the oil film down some.
With zero or near zero oil pressure how much of the remaining oil film do you think there will be with a 1500 pound foot stomping on it? It’s like crushing an ant under a boot.
(For what it’s worth, I’ve torn into a lot of these kind of things and I’ve never seen an undamaged engine yet. The only question is the degree of that damage.)
Site glitch again??? It’s been acting goofy all evening for me.
Since it sounds like you’ve already presented the options to the dealer and they’ve apparently chosen one, I might guess (wildly) at Number 3 for several reasons.
The replacement engine could be salvage yard engine and some dealers get a price break from a yard that they deal with on occasion.
The labor involved at the dealership will probably be zero or heavily discounted depending on who was involved in this oil change mistake.
A. If it was a low wage lube guy who made this error then it could be that he’s already been fired (unless in-bred relative of management) and any regular mechanic who changes the engine may be coerced into doing it for a heavy discount.
B. If a regular mechanic botched this oil change then it could well be this mechanic (unless in-bred relative of management) will be doing the engine swap for free under threat of being fired, changing the engine and being fired anyway, or fired anyway and the engine swapped by another mechanic who would be placed under the A scenario above.
About a month ago, I changed the oil in my car, and when I checked for leaks, there was a big pool of oil on the ground. I figured I had a defective oil filter, so I rode my motorcycle to the auto parts store and picked up a new one. When I removed what I thought was the defective oil filter, there were two rubber gaskets on it, one from the old oil filter. I had checked the mating surface before mounting the replacement oil filter, but I hadn’t checked thoroughly enough. I removed the extra rubber gasket, and re-mounted the oil filter, and kept the newer replacement for my next oil change. Someone who does 10-15 oil changes a day could easily skip the step of checking for leaks.
They don’t owe you a new engine. They owe you a used engine with about 40,000 miles on it, and I would insist on one. If they won’t give it to you, take them to (small claims?) court. If they can’t find you a used engine with 40,000 miles or less on it, they owe you a new engine.
Thank you, CSA, for bringing some common sense to this discussion. The dealership screwed up, and they have insurance to cover this screw-up. They have an opportunity to reward a loyal customer’s loyalty. If they can’t make good on this, someone should make them, and refuse to settle for less.
I have to respectfully disagree with one point here and that’s about insurance to cover something like this. Maybe somewhere there’s someone who works under a policy like that but I’ve never worked under it or even heard of a dealer having a policy.
Any screwups come out of the petty cash drawer.
@ok4450, Tom and Ray have such a policy, and I would expect any responsible business owner to have a similar policy, or the cash reserves to pay for such screw-ups. Not having this insurance would be like finding a doctor who doesn’t have malpractice insurance.
Being curious, how do you know T and R have such a policy? I’ve never seen or heard of one.
If an employee screws up someone’s car (as in this case) then the company is on the hook. The company will cover the cost in their budget although sometimes with some stonewalling involved.
It’s also quite true that an employee (again, depending on status) will be coerced into doing the repair for free or at a heavy discount along with the strong probability of being canned.
If a service department is bringing in a couple of hundred grand or so a month then covering a trashed engine can be easily done.
The only thing I’ve ever seen or heard of being covered was a Pontiac that fell off of a defective lift that dropped suddenly. In this case it was an equipment caused accident, not neglect on the part of the employee. (Although the employee, a great guy and sharp mechanic, was fired less than 10 minutes after it happened.)