mountainbike
I read what you wrote, and it’s very informative
Thanks for that information
But many states don’t have any kind of safety inspection programs
And I wouldn’t necessarily count on the guy at private shops to inspect a frame
I’m sure @asemaster would specifically check to make sure the frame is okay, and not corroded and/or cracked
But there are many guys who want to rush through the job and move on to the next
I work in an extremely unregulated industry . . .
I realize this is not automotive related but could illustrate wing loading stress on aluminum. Why would it be much different on trucks. One can pretty much imagine the last thoughts of the pilots.
How many truck owners would want to pay for a thorough inspection of the frame? Very few I would imagine and especially if Zyglo or a similar process was involved.
Thanks for that. I’ve got to fly out Friday and I always look at the wings wiggling. I tell myself flexing is good and if they didn’t flex, they’d fall off. Now I need to reconsider.
Fatigue failures in aircraft are extremely rare. But because a fatigue failure happened in an aircraft does not mean it’s not fatigue resistant enough for trucks if designed properly. A C-130H has a gross takeoff weight of over 300,000 pounds, all held up by the two wings, and the tensile stresses on the bottom where the wings meet the fuselage are tremendous. It’s a far bigger challenge than a truck, where loads can be accommodated under compression.
It isn’t a perfect world, but I personally have absolutely no doubt that aluminum framework for trucks can be designed and be every bit as failure free as steel frames. Remember that steel frames occasionally fail too. But there would be a learning curve. Remember too that there already have been for many years all aluminum livestock trainers, boats, campers, and countless other structures.
There are so many high stress over-the-road, in the air, and marine applications that aluminum alloys are already being used for and have been f or decades that I truly believe the question of whether it can be used has already been answered. The only thing keeping steel ubiquitous in pickup trucks is cost and market acceptance. People just don’t feel comfortable with aluminum. And aluminum is more expensive to build vehicles with.
Mark my words, if market acceptance of the new Fords with the aluminum bodies improves, we’ll see aluminum framed pickups trucks in the not too distant future. If the new F150 struggles, we won’t. It isn’t a question of the material’s capability, it’s a question of the market’s acceptance.
“A C-130H has a gross takeoff weight of over 300,000 pounds, all held up by the two wings”
Um, you’re not making me feel any better. Wonder what the weight of a 737 is. Hope there aren’t any fat people on board. Maybe instead of the floating seats, they should provide parachutes just in case.
I work in an extremely unregulated industry . . .
Let’s see, you need to be licensed to cut someone’s hair or give them a manicure but anyone can call themselves an auto mechanic. Makes sense, huh?
Um, you're not making me feel any better. Wonder what the weight of a 737 is. Hope there aren't any fat people on board. Maybe instead of the floating seats, they should provide parachutes just in case.Don't know off the top of my head, but a typical commercial airliner grosses out at around 1,000# per passenger carried. A B737 holds what...120 or so?
Actually, an aircraft is a good test of a material under load, because the need for light weight dictates making things just strong enough. You can “get away with” making a truck frame “way stronger than it needs to be”…but doing so on an aircraft would be unacceptably heavy.
TSM: Great stories about the BUFF! Do you know/can you tell us what sort of TTAE those birds had, and if they were flying on the original wing spar?
Mercury is bad,thats why Dentists used to fill peoples mouths with it(silver amalgam) my favorite Dentist used to maintain there wasnt nothing wrong with it,I dont think they use much mercury in cars,I think though the airlines were more worried about structural considersations then toxcicity,I can think of toxic things allowed on aircraft,but thats another consideration,I’m sure the regs have tightened.
“Let’s see, you need to be licensed to cut someone’s hair or give them a manicure but anyone can call themselves an auto mechanic.”
Well, you need to understand how occupations become licensed occupations. Many times its the people in these occupations themselves that lobby the appropriate agency to become licensed. Why? Because then they can raise rates and restrict entry. Some are long term established such as nurses, doctors, dentists, and so on, but a lot of the others have been pushed by the folks themselves and found eager supporters in the agencies that will benefit from increased budgets from licensing fees. Mechanics can do it if they want. Roofers have done it and carpenters have done it so its all up to the certified mechanics to lobby the Commerce Departments and make an offer they can’t refuse. They’ll love it.
@kmccune, actually Mercury is toxic. Do you know the phrase “mad hatter”? It comes from hat makers that used mercury in their work. They would rub the Mercury on the felt, and it would be absorbed through the skin. And yes, it caused serious neurological damage. The allow amalgam is a stable compound, otherwise dentists would not use it.
Yep JT you are right,some people that used to cover their bodies with Cinnabar,would eventually get poisoned.I remember when I got my fillings,I could taste metal for 6 months,some people have to have the amalgam removed,as for some Dentists,some people think its alright to wash your hands with gasoline,Gasoline is for cars , not hand cleaning…
Bing ,dont look at the wings
“some people think its alright to wash your hands with gasoline . . .”
you can call me ignorant, but I’ve done it. Not recently, though
I’ve also “pre-washed” my hands with #2 grease and ground beef
I’ve also used gasoline for cleaning tapered roller bearings, before repacking them with fresh grease. Worked very well, I might add
Joe, I don’t know what a TTAE is, so I’ll have to bow out of that one.
Yes, they’re operating on the original airframes, including the spars.
There are, in fact, aircraft operating with far, far more flight hours on their all-original airframes. DC-3s. There are estimated to be over 400 DC-3 aircraft still in service throughout the world, primarily in third world countries. Experts theorize that the aircraft was overdesigned to ensure that it would meet military requirements, and it thus just keeps on flyin’. That speaks to your other point about making the design stronger than it needs to be. That can be done with aluminum more easily because it doesn’t carry the weight penalty that steel does.
Forgive a non engineer but aren’t designs done with a built in stress factor such a 2, 2 1/2, 3? So that when the exact stress is known, the design strength is doubled or tripled? Maybe I’m showing my age and we’re living more on the edge now with exact computations using computers.
One big plus side to using aluminum is that it saves a lot of money in machining costs compared to steel.
Thousands of end mills, drill bits, tool bits, and so on along with the machine tools to run them cost a ton of money to buy and a ton of money to keep up.
What will be interesting to me is to see what happens when those aluminum framed trucks start getting whaled on by some of the local farmers and oil/gas field people.
Bing, that’s absolutely true. Structural elements typically have at least a 50% “error budget”, 100% and more for critical structural elements. Critical is generally considered as having a Failure Mode and Effects Analysis result that will by itself cause catastrophic failure of the overall system or will cascade the failure into other areas causing catastrophic failure of the overall system. If a wing falls off, the whole plane crashes, thus the structural systems that hold the wing on would have a 100% or greater “error budget”. If a pitot tube falls off, the plane can still safely fly, so the pitot tube mounting would have a far lower “error budget”.
But all of this is no biggie in modern design departments for any major car or aircraft manufacturer. As a matter of fact much of what used to be done by rooms full of engineers leaning over drafting tables with pocket protectors is now done by sophisticated programs. Finite Element Analysis, to clarify the exact loads, thermal characteristics, FMEA, and numerous other parameters necessary can now be done on computers, even under dynamic conditions. A spinning turbine blade assembly can be analyzed without ever casting a single blade. Qualification testing is, of course, still necessary to prove that the final assembly actually works like the computer model shows.
There’s plenty of knowledge and experience available in any major vehicle manufacturing company to convert to aluminum.
The big unknowns are whether the market will accept it and be willing to pay the higher price… if there is one. The major vehicle manufacturers are highly risk averse. Until and unless one succeeds with aluminum, the rest of the industry will be highly reluctant to jump in. It might take an outsider to succeed first, just as it took Tesla for any major manufacturers to get serious about EVs.
Well, you need to understand how occupations become licensed occupations. Many times its the people in these occupations themselves that lobby the appropriate agency to become licensed. Why? Because then they can raise rates and restrict entry. Some are long term established such as nurses, doctors, dentists, and so on, but a lot of the others have been pushed by the folks themselves and found eager supporters in the agencies that will benefit from increased budgets from licensing fees. Mechanics can do it if they want. Roofers have done it and carpenters have done it so its all up to the certified mechanics to lobby the Commerce Departments and make an offer they can't refuse. They'll love it.
Almost every one of the license’s you mentioned is STATE sponsored…not fed. And many are not even state, but Town licenses. Most of the cities in NY you need to be a licensed electrician or plumber to do any work on a home (even your own). Other towns you just need it inspected by a licensed plumber or electrician. And even other towns…no inspection is needed at all. This closed system in many cities was GREAT for the existing plumbers and electricians. The current licensed plumbers and electricians ran the board and for years and REFUSED to issue more licenses because it would be competition. Eventually they got sued and had to open up the licenses.
In some states you don’t need to be certified in medical specialities to perform those specialities. All you need is to be a MD. In Florida you LEGALLY perform brain surgery the day you get your medical diploma. As opposed to other states where you need to be board certified which takes another 15-20 years of training AFTER medical school.
Certifying mechanics in theory is a good idea. But in practice won’t happen. I guess you can grandfather everyone who’s a mechanic today and then only grant licenses to others who have been trained. Maybe take a test? But it’s going to cost some money to implement them.
That’s true Mike.
I cannot support the idea of any level of government licensing mechanics in any manner. Granted, that means anybody can hang out a shingle, but to do so requires a serious investment in facilities, tools & equipment, and the average shadetree wouldn’t last out the first week without realizing he didn’t have what it takes to support the aforementioned investments.
As already mentioned, the purpose of licensure is often for those already in a business to create entry barriers to those who would become competitors. Barbers, for example. In real estate in NH, a real estate salesman with years of experience cannot become a broker unless an opening is sanctioned by the Board of Realtors and a recommendation from a broker is in evidence… and a large fee is paid.
A third party objective organization’s certification, such as the ASE certs, is IMHO the best system. It provides some evidence that the person has at least submitted to and passed independent knowledge testing without being prohibitive.
All fields, including medicine, have idiots in them. Lawyers have to pass the bar, yet my divorce lawyer… perhaps I shouldn’t go there. And I won’t talk about a crooked, deceitful, scoundrel of a relative I have that’s a real estate broker. Licensure really doesn’t do the job as well as one would hope.
All fields, including medicine, have idiots in them.
True…but I’d feel a lot more confident knowing that the doctor who’s about to remove my brain tumor was board certified.
I’m just saying don’t blame the government. In Minnesota contractors are licensed. Its not that bad. Requires a certain proficiency and on-going course work, but not tough. With that comes insurance and a complaint resolution process. Never implied that licenses were federal-its not their business.