I now understand that Rick’s not talking about actual Fieros, but what could have been if they went with a complete redesign in 1989, new car, new engine, etc. Yes, they could have built a ‘Fiero’ that could have competed with a Corvette. But the cost? Why do it if the existing plant was way under capacity, leading to huge overhead costs per unit. Price it like a Corvette? Very few sales. Undercut the Corvette? Lose money and also hurt GM’s pride and joy. And who knows how good, overall, it really would have been?
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Yes, much like in my life i was talking about what could have been, not what actually was.
@Old-Days-Rick ‘s Fiero needs to have leaf springs, drum brakes all around and a 1barrel carburetor
And not transverse leaf springs
Longitudinal leaf springs, like in a truck
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Or a proper 70s car. What about a nice monoleaf suspension? Unlike saggy coil springs
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I’ve seen comments about how GM’s monoleaf springs were prone to sag.
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… and to being deformed in other ways. Surely I can’t be the only forum member who saw a LOT of mid-late '60s Chevy Novas that were crab-walking after a few years because of their deformed monoleaf rear springs. There are multi-leaf replacements available.
Warning, this ended up wayyyy longer than I had planned, but it tells kinda the story…
This was back in 2001 and I saw the writing on the walls, I got out quick once I saw everything that was happening (I left after 9 months), not to much after I left U-Haul corp came in to our Madison branch, the main center for middle TN and cleaned house, I think they did in the Hendersonville (main body shop in TN), fired every manager and restructured everything, including moving the body shop to the Madison location, and turning the H’ville center into a huge storage center… It wasn’t long before something went down and they got in trouble or something and the parent company or whoever filled for bankruptcy… Anyway, it was a big mess to say the least…
I would say I needed a push rod and rocker arm for their F/E 350 diesel engine and a new valve cover cause it would break a rocker arm and shove the pushrod through the valve cover, so they would order a complete new head, I would use what I needed and take the brand new head back to the parts department, they said just throw it in the dumpster, wouldn’t send it back to be rebuilt by the company, back then anyway, U-Haul bought just a cab and chassis (running truck) and would build everything else in house, lots of U-Haul only designs and parts, I remember one of the older trucks designs had a custom U-Haul only built starter that not even the dealer could get, and they would assembly heads fully loaded and drum brakes at least on the medium duty truck, where built backing plate out, all 16" wheels/tires would interchange as well as the 19.5’ wheels/tires, Goodyear had the contract, if a tire went low for any reason, they gave you a wheel w/new tire already mounted to put on, I only remember them at the time having 1 16" size and 1 19.5" size that fit all the trucks, with maybe the Toyota 1 ton box trucks having their own wheel/tire, they were totally different, the Toyota trucks didn’t have the ramp…
Remember the Ford V10’s blowing out spark plugs, us engine guys got brand new head(s) to put on, and you threw the old one in the dumpster, all they needed was thread inserts… lol…
The reason they had so many break downs back then was because when a truck came in, the center had to have that truck ready to go in a week or something, or be fined $100.00 a day it sat there until repaired, lot normally had around 100 trucks on the lot, I always had 10-20 trucks waiting in line for something, sometimes more cause I was the only one that could repair steering columns at the time, and all though I was ONLY hired in to do engine work, they soon found out I did it all, so I always had my bays full, I was also the only one that had more than one bay, I had 2 full time bays, and 1 extra if needed… The PM guys had 2 to 4 guys per bay and the brake guys shared a bay and 2 worked on a truck at a time, but I never got help… I “stole” the forklift one time cause I had to put a rear-end in the big diesel manual shift truck (biggest they had) with no help… Anyway, so if a truck that was broke down or whatever sat to long waiting to be repaired, they would get it running long enough to rent it out, the truck wouldn’t make it that far most of the time and they would put the customer in a different truck and tow it back and the timer started all over again, I remember that went on for a few months on a Toyota that would no start randomly, long story but I finally fixed it once they gave up and asked me to look at it… lol
Of course, no money every changed hands, it was all paperwork to show what was being done or not done…
But the company would just cost themselves money for stu-pid stuff… It was crazy… Now they keep all new(er) nice trucks… but back about 25 years ago, most of the trucks were old out dated and junk… A lot of the work I did was because the PM guys screwed something up, left something loose (like lug nuts, spark plugs etc), or whatever…
I used to say, if renting local, rent a U-Haul, if not local or one way, rent anything else… I think our on the road repair guys could go 200 miles or something like that, I think we only had 4 and they had their own sections , we handled multiple states for any major repairs back then… I don’t have a clue how they operate now a days…
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As recently stated on another post in here as well as being touched on here a while back, disc brakes are gross polluters, spewing their toxic dust all over, polluting waterways and whatnot.
Thanks to regulations like Euro 7 we may see a bit of resurgence in drum brakes. Car brake pads to change under new rules to curb pollution
Here is an excerpt
“Drum brakes might also see a resurgence because of Euro 7. In drum brakes, friction is generated by brake shoes pressing against the interior of a rotating drum. Because “they keep everything inside the drum,” as Mr Cuenot says, the particles are also contained.
Tenneco has noticed that though drum brake demand in the automotive aftermarket was previously declining rapidly, this has slowed.”
So no matter how many people want to bulldog disc brakes to the front of the line, its clear that drum brakes are here to stay, maybe even become the gold standard again. Human and environmental health depends on it!
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He’s wrong, dust does get out. I changed lots of drum brakes, there was dust, but far less than all the lining that had been worn away.
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That is the primary reason drum brake perform poorly when wet; wet brake dust makes for a good lubricant.
Some have remarked that drum brakes are ineffective after getting wet, drum brakes require maintenance: “clean and adjust”, on a regular basis.
After passing through flood water, I used to apply the brake for 10 seconds to dry the shoes and drums. I don’t recall weak braking after driving through a “puddle”, I kept my brakes clean and I installed rubber plugs into the adjustment holes to keep contaminates out.
Ok lets talk serious here for a minute. PM 2.5 emissions are no joke. Germany has discovered 20 percent of all PM 2.5 emissions come from brake dust!
Drums contain much of thier dust. Drum brakes are better for the environment.
These are facts!
So Mr. Cuenot, a top expert, is wrong. I see.
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Drums are more effective brakes in general. They can apply more force. They are also simpler, more reliable, more sealed to the elements, and cheaper. Their downsides are 1) they can’t dissipate heat as easily as discs can and 2) they don’t provide good ‘feel’, meaning they aren’t as gradual and can go from providing little braking to locking up with just a little more force.
Trucks generally don’t care about #2. Brake feel isn’t a big deal as long as you have abs for actual work trucks. Trucks aren’t trying to brake late into a a corner to preserve exit speed and we don’t care if they are fun to drive. #1 is a concern but engineers and truck designers have weighed it against all of the positives and sometimes still choose drums.
For normal road cars heat dissipation isn’t that big of a deal but people really care about brake feel so discs have won out there. For race cars feel and heat dissipation are both really important so they will pretty much always have discs.
You will actually probably see more road cars in the coming years have drum brakes thanks to electric vehicles. With regenerative braking that is computer controlled a lot of the downsides of drums can be accounted for and drums become a much more viable option.
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Have you ever replaced disc brakes in your life? If so, you could never say they were simpler or more reliable. Far more mechanical parts to fail in drum brakes. And far more things to go wrong like the self-adjusters. When comparing size to size then Drum brakes can apply more force. So manufacturers use bigger disc brakes for the same braking force. I’ve NEVER EVER had a disc brake not applying enough force to stop any vehicle I’ve ever owned.
Why I prefer disc brakes - they offer superior heat management, faster response, better modulation, and consistent performance in wet conditions, preventing the dangerous “brake fade” that plagues enclosed drum brakes. Their open design allows for rapid heat dissipation, quicker bite and release, and they handle contaminants like water better, giving drivers precise control for shorter stopping distances
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Brake drums are often used as musical instruments in the percussion section of bands. I believe the theme for George Gershwin’s “An American in Paris” is one place a brake drum is used. The part can’t be played on a brake disk.
Yes, drum brakes may have a come back on EV’s and other vehicles for the REAR brakes only for cars and light trucks, rear drums are cheaper to produce vs having rotors w/ separate parking brakes, but don’t fool yourself, disc are far superior on the fronts where a minimum of 70% of your braking comes from, ALL 2005 to 2023 Toyota Tacoma’s run the same front 4 piston caliper designed brakes with rear 10" drum brakes… 2024^ went to rear disc brakes with electric parking brake…
BTW Toyota Prius has been out since what, 2001?? And has always used regenerative braking (same as an EV), BUT none of which use front drum brakes!!!
So yes, Rear drum brakes (NOT front) when used in conjunction with regenerative braking, and at a max, are used for 30% of the total braking (probably less than 20% in real life) will start being used more often (probably lower priced vehicles) for cost since a separate parking brake system is not required…
You can also take a larger automotive drum brake and put a drum micrometer in it and squeeze it with your hands and watch it flex, rotors don’t do that either… lol
No, they cannot. The maximum force that can be applied by ANY brake is entirely based on the effectiveness of the tire on the road.
A disk brake can match every ft-lb a drum brake can create. Both can create enough to lock a tire into a skid…or force it into an ABS activation.
But the disk brake can apply it many more times before fade occurs than a drum brake can.
You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
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I drove with drum brakes for 10 years, they were fine until you really needed them. I want brakes that work well in an emergency.
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Yes.
A combination of front disc and rear drum brakes will start being implemented more often, in cars like my wife’s model-year 2005 Toyota Corolla….