Capitalism at work, nothing more.If this Dealer has such poor business practices they won’t be around long. We don’t hear our OP complaining about the work do we?
I look to the East and I see a halo over the Sate of OK. must be ment for you 4450.
Oldschool, you remind me of conservatives who think it is just fine to charge $300 for a bag of ice during the aftermath of a natural disaster…you know, due to supply and demand.
I’d like to go on record here as saying that based on everything we have available to us, and even assuming the worst stripped sparkplug hole in the history of the earth, the OP got screwed big time. A stripped aprakplug hole does not justify a new engine…and a used one for $4400??? It upsets me to hear, and it bothers me to hear it defended.
And it is in no way whatsoever the fault of the OP. The OP was a victim, just as sure as if she’d been mugged. The fact that a mugging victim could have taken a cab instead of walking does not allocate any responsibility to the victim. The mugger is solely, totally, 100% responsible.
This is not capitalism. This is robbery. Capitalism is honest competition, honest fees for honest work or product. Capitalism is not taking advantage of someone’s lack of knowledge in your area of expertise in order to assess serious costs for unneeded work.
The OP mentions that she talked with some mechanics and that these mechanics responded that she probably would not get anywhere in her complaint with the other shop. Strangely the OP does not write that these mechanics said “you were robbed when you paid 4400.00 for that engine because your old head could have been fixed”.
Think of it,the OP reports she spoke with other mechanics about this and is did not get the same response that she is getting from some here,why do you think this is? These other mechanics had “eyes on” the situation and did not come to the same conclusion that you are.
The OP also reports the “sparkplug shot out like a rocket through the header”. think about this, how can a sparkplug shoot through a header?
Too much of this story simply does not add up for me to get in lock step with others. Like I said, I would have to review all with my own eyes to come to a conclusion. If these issues with the OP’s report did not exist I would have an easier time with the entire story.
I can very easily accept that the head was not “on car repairable” and when the Dealer faced the prospect of pulling the head to get it repaired it was decided that this car was not one they wanted to take a chance on concerning issues with the lower end,the car did not fit the parameters for a head removal and warranty.
Funny thing is, the OP did not write asking if she got a fair deal on the used engine replacement, she wanted to know if she should contact the shop that put the plugs in.
Unfortunately there are many capitalist enterprises that have thrived and endured while ripping off their customers. See: Goldman Sachs.
See Enron
This is my last comment to or about oldschool and that’s going to be the end of it, both on this thread and any future threads.
We have a diametrically opposed outlook on the way people should be treated and we’ll leave it at that.
Yes, but the implied question was could she get them to foot the bill for this outrageously priced repair. It is akin to changing engines because the oil is dirty.
I think the reason the OP approved this work is because she, like many people outside of “the industry”, believed that the Toyota dealer is the best place to have your Toyota repaired. She was faced with something unusual to the typical car owner and probably thought this was something best left to the dealer. The dealer shot her three (outlandish) options, and she chose what seemed to her to be the best one. Many people optimistically believe they should be able to trust their mechanics; sometimes they learn a harsh and expensive lesson. You can call that optimism trust or naivete, whichever you want. It should be trust but sometimes, like in this case, ends up being more like naivete. I don’t think the OP “got what she deserved”, but I do believe that if this dealer continues with such practices, karma will eventually burn the place to the ground.
The OP also reports the “sparkplug shot out like a rocket through the header”. think about this, how can a sparkplug shoot through a header?
It can’t, but the OP is not as car literate as we are. Things like this happen frequently on this forum, you may have noticed. The OP is most likely inaccurately parroting something she was told, perhaps that the spark plug shot out of the head like a rocket. Sometimes people who don’t know the names of every single part of a car can say things that sound silly to people who do know, and you have to have some understanding of this. I doubt the OP could look at an exploded diagram of an internal combustion engine and correctly name every single part, even though you or I could. I also wouldn’t trust myself to defibrillate someone, even though the OP can do it. That’s not my department any more than cars is hers.
I think the “through the header” comment may be used too literally and even the term “header” may not be used correctly.
Plug blows out, ricochets off hood, and dangles between a few tubes by its wiring…
Most of the folks on this forum are very knowledgable about cars, they either work as a mechanic, own there own shop, or just love repairing cars & do it as a hobby. Thats wonderful & I respect all of that combined expertise.
However what many of you do not seem to realize is that is not the case with everyone. People ask questions because they do not know the answer. I do not know how my central air operates, that does not make me uneducated or uninformed, it means I don’t know air conditioning, and have to depend on professionals to repair it. I also don’t know much about tax laws so I need to hire an accountant.
I will venture to say that not many of you can hold your own with me when it comes to running & repairing 40"
6 color offset printing presses. That does not make you stupid or uneducated, it is simply out of your area of expertise.
Please give a little consideration to those of us who are not as knowledgeable in auto repair. We buy our cars, read the owners manual, follow scheduled service, and depend on professionals when something out of the ordinary goes wrong. Most of the time we return to the dealers where we purchased the car, assuming that the people who have been granted a franchise to sell and repair a paticular brand of automobile have been trained and will not rip us off.
Just try to remember that not all of us are as knowledgeable as all of you, & do not belittle us for our lack of knowledge in auto repairs, most people read & ask questions on this forum to try and gain a little bit of your know how.
Sorry for being so long winded & thanks for reading
A personal attack that occurs during a discussion is a sure indicator the the one making the personal attack has run out of factual issues to debate on. This type of attack is known as an “ad hominem” attack. This is an attempt to link the validity of a belief of the person to a characteristic of the person advocating the premise. The ad-hominem attack is a classical logical fallacy.
The use of the ad hominem linkage does have its place though. It would be allowed if you were trying to discount someones testimony in a court of law.
The best thing to do we presented with an ad hominem attack is to just ignore it, as you have already won the discussion if this is how low the debate has dropped.
My premise was not that the OP “got what she deserved” but that she should have walked away from the offers and that the Dealer is free to price where he wants, this is the capitalist system, if the Dealer continues to price out of reason the powers of the free market will deal with him. Then again the OP is not complaining about the price of the repair, just asking if she should seek some sort of remedy from the shop that installed the plugs.
As a nurse, you should know the proper response: Go to the shop where this cashectomy was performed, and tell them you have a problem requiring the offending mechanic to stretch across the engine compartment(if they can find it), and when said mechanic is fully extended, gently apply your defib paddles to their nether regions
With a lone exception, I think most agree that the OP got stiffed by the dealer and if you use the “search” function at the top of this page you will find that the OP is not the first person to have a spark plug blow out followed by the recommendation of replacing a cylinder head or engine. Here’s an example and it’s by far from being the only example.
http://community.cartalk.com/posts/list/601012.page
This is due to:
A. They are mechanically inept and have no idea what Heli-Coil is.
B. They know what a Heli-Coil is and are afraid to install one due to their ineptness.
A fair number of dealers are being taken over by young guys (stars in their eyes and full of naivete or BS) fresh out of trade school. They have a UTI certificate, maybe a dozen pieces of paper from various factory service schools, and maybe even some ASEs and this quite often does not translate into what’s referred to as a “clue”.
In the case of the OP this repair is a 50 to 300 dollar repair with a worst case being repairing ALL of the plug holes at once and replacing the valve cover gasket/plug well seals. On this model it’s not a big deal.
Other than the fact I’ve actually repaired a lot of stripped/blown plug holes consider this.
A local auto machine shop I use provided me with a price list a few years ago. They charge 10 bucks per hole for this job on a carry-in head. Weigh that against the 2600 they OP was quoted for a carry-in job.
I emailed a friend who works for the local Chevy/Toyota dealer in the parts dept. and had him check as to what they would charge there for this job. One hour X 75 dollar per flat rate hour + few dollars for part/taxes, etc.
I know less than zero about printing presses but if your printing press broke down because of a 50 dollar fix and you were sold a brand new press you would probably be a bit hot if you discovered this later.
I think the service of both dealerships was criminal…Are u sure the last just didn`t fix the spark plug threads with a heli coil and charge u for another engine?? I would talk to an attorney before they can say ur old engine went to scrap yard…
oldschool, the shop described has been in business since '68. It works well. I left because I wanted a W-2 and benefits. I dealt with my customers, as did the other mechanics. Actually, comebacks were few and in-between.
I still think the OP should have contacted the shop and questioned why the spark plug flew out after a recent tune-up. The dealership was trying to teach the OP a lesson as to why you don’t take a vehicle to a "nasty " independent shop.
You could actually be correct.I do not fault you for your proposal. I also thought this was a possibility.Trouble is I have a hard time accepting that she took them up. I would really like to get some eyes on that damaged head (and look the rest of the car over) and see if I would have been comfortable pulling the head and then providing a warranty for the entire engine. It would really be bad to pull that head for repair (I know others say “no matter how bad the head was damaged it would never need to be pulled to be repaired”)and have the lower end go 90 days latter, but I would have to make that call for myself.
Alot of people fall back to the dealer when a small shop doesn’t help out or does not give them a “warm and fuzzy feeling” Independent shops don’t need to “suck-up” as dealers do.
Unfortunately, alot of dealerships are number oriented. "Sales are down 2.5% this month! Pick up your service sales!Sell more coolant flushes , pick up the pace! etc…
I can’t believe the whole motor needed to be replaced. Unfortunately,we are not there to call the shots and help the OP
Being a mechanic for over 20 Years I have to agree with Mr Mountainbike and OK45…
I dont see anyone here putting the OP down…in fact we are behind the OP…and WISH they got a second opinion…I am sure she was towed to the dealer and then in her mind had to simply do what was needed to fix her vehicle…they surely didnt have the dough to buy a new vehicle…so they tried to save the one thay had…and the one that was towed into the garage…they didnt want to go thru the trouble of moving it I am sure…They felt STUCK… They just wanted their car working… I KNOW they didnt like this repair bill or quote…they were SCREWED by the place that should look out for LOYAL CUSTOMERS… No one is attacking the OP. Can you imagine if they fixed the head with a helicoil and then told them that they swapped the engine? THERE IS A HUGE PROFIT MARGIN IN THAT REPAIR…I can tell you that. What on earth is this world coming to…WHy didnt anyone at this dealership truly HELP THE OP…
WHat happened here is ABSURD…and the DEALER should be strung up and shot…WHY? Because thats why…just read the posts. There IS something wrong with quoting a person an enormous bill or a repair solution that is simply ABSURD. The dealer xould have fixed this issue with the cylinder head on the car…ITS A SIMPLE PROVEN FIX.
What the F has happened to HONESTY? A job well done? Care for your fellow man/woman? I have been wrenching on all forms of vehicles since I could hold a wrench… The reason I have been doing this for so long is because One…I am GOOD at what I do. TWO…I AM AN HONEST MECHANIC… I know that may seem an oxymoron to some but there are HONEST GUYS OUT THERE…this person did not fall into the hands of honset people… How could they do this? The OP took them up on it because they prob felt they had no other recourse…and it is the Service managers DUTY to see that people are happy with their service…replacing an engine over a simple stripped plug is Unconcionable…I know I spelled that wrong.
It is downright sad to me that Old School defends the dealers opinion…Its sad on sooo many levels. What has happened to people…An honest mechanic is worth his weight in GOLD these days…and being one I have come to learn this. People come to me when they want the TRUTH and when they want to save money…Basically every single customer I have is from word of mouth…and that powerful stuff. No wonder people hate dealerships.
Replacing the engine WAS WRONG…SUGGESTING IT WAS WRONG…ACTUALLY DOING IT WAS WRONG… There is no other way to see this. FOrget making money for your employer…How can you sleep at night knowing you made about what $15/hr? To present this absurd repair estimate to the OP…who has to shell out BIG money for a USED engine…when they could be on the road for less that $150 HORRENDOUS…SIMPLY HORRIBLE… I wish the OP got a second opinon…My God