Synthetic fuels

General Discussion
1

I searched and didn’t find any threads. (Plenty on syn oil). And it’s not really a “car” question but certainly an ICE question having to do more with small engines.

When I first stumbled on syn fuels for 2 cycle engines, I was pretty happy. They’re very expensive compared to gas, but my 2-cycle engines are 1 chainsaw, and 1 weed trimmer. They get sparing and occasional use, but when I need them to start, I just need them to start! So the price difference doesn’t stack up against wrecked carbs and whatnot. (Though I do also generally know how to avoid that if using normal gasoline mix. At times when I know I’ll use them a lot, I just use normal 2-cycle mix, empty the tank at the end and run the carb dry).

I’d never thought of the 4-cycle stuff until recently (just from a convo I had with someone). My 4 cycle small engines are a generator and lawn tractor which doubles as my snow plow.

  • Is anyone using any 4-cycle syn fuel for anything? Probably not, b/c from what I can tell it runs about $20/gal. Not sensible for most uses, but curious nonetheless if anyone knows of some more affordable options.

  • Does anyone know what the practical shelf life of the synfuels is? The web has not enlightened me so far, and I haven’t had the patience to go find the TDS’s for various brands.

  • Unless someone says they know of an affordable one, it wouldn’t be practical for me to use in either the generator or the lawn tractor on a regular basis. Currently I just find ethanol free and add seafoam as stabilizer/cleaner. It’s been working fine.

  • But I was thinking about buying a 5gal to have in the garage on an emergency basis. (I could tell you about that one ice storm where I really could have used an extra 5 sitting around. Or the time the wife ran out of gas and I didn’t have anything handy).

So just wondering if anyone is using the stuff, and especially if anyone knows anything solid about the shelf life.

2

Are you asking about TruFuel or similar? If so, that is engineered fuel, not synthetic fuel. The 2 cycle stuff has synthetic 2 cycle oil premixed.

I have used the 2 cycle stuff when I still had 2 cycle lawn equipment. It has a very long shelf life. I would not use it in a machine that gets heavy use. I use sta-bil in non-ethanol gas in my generator and it gets changed every 12 months. Then I pour the 5 gallons of the old stuff in my truck.

Details here,

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3

There’s not much on synthetic fuel but a lot has to be done to get enough gasoline out of crude oil. Chemical cracking should be interesting to read about before a good nap. Gasoline was once regarded as an unfortunate byproduct of the distillation process until gasoline engines were themselves refined. Now we need it in large quantities. There has to be a story in this somewhere.

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Yes, tho’ TruFuel is only one brand.

So “engineered” fuel is not “synthetic?” It seems to me that if you’ve “engineered” a fuel, then you have “synthesized” it.

If there’s some difference, then I mean either one regardless of whatever the difference is. I wasn’t meaning to be technical or precisely semantic about it.

I know that TruFuel gives a 2-5yr shelf. And I was pretty clear that I don’t use it under periods of “heavy use.” I was wondering about costs and direct experience / judgments about shelf life.

My normal thing for small engines is ethanol-free + seafoam to stabilize and clean.

5

The gasoline you buy from the pumps is highly engineered, too. That doesn’t make it synthetic.

I had a can of 50:1 2 cycle fuel on my shelf for 5 years. Worked fine. There’s no way pump gas and 2 cycle mix would last that long. And it would require a carb rebuild to clean the gunk out if I let it sit too long. That’s the reason for using it. For 2 cycle fuel, it is good stuff. If you don’t need the shelf life, save money and use pump gas.

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Gee thanks. And all of this time I thought gasoline just bubbled up in “natural,” un-altered form from the ground under the gas station. :roll_eyes: So when you referred to “engineered fuel” why didn’t you also just say that “all fuel is engineered?”

So what makes it “synthetic?” If you engineer a fuel then, you are synthesizing. If you synthesize a fuel, then you are engineering.

But that is all so beside the point. I have no idea why this semantic game is relevant at all to what I posted.

Let me simplify my OP: These days you can buy these weird canned fuels at hardware stores and the like. I’ve been using the 2-cycle versions for years with success. If I wanted to buy a 5 gal 4-cycle CAN to keep around as a back-up / emergency fuel source, how long do you think it’s good for? And does anyone use it regularly for anything, and get it for less than about $20/gal.

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Nope. Synthetic gasoline is made from methane, such as through a long process starting with steam reforming to make syngas, followed by the Fischer-Tropsch reaction. Germany did it in WWII.

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OMG. Head-smack.

Ok, fine - go to the industry-specific meaning of “synthetic gasoline” - and even then it won’t specify that it’s made from methane from the whatzagig reaction.

The word SYNTHESIZE or SYNTHETIC has a general meaning. It’s to combine sh** to make some other sh**. Baking is synthesis. Baked goods are “synthetic.”

WTF does this have to do with any of it? Nothing.

F*** it. Forget that I asked about canned fuel.

If anyone really knew anything relevant, then they would have said so.

Now I know why @the_same_mountainbike left.

9

Mr. Mountainbike healths issues just became overwhelming. It became noticeable a few months before he left the Forum. He had trouble with a subject because he had never seen the thing being discussed or had forgotten they did exist.

No one posted anything that should have made him upset, he just was unwell enough that he had trouble processing things. As a result he took it personal.

Just a fact of life but it is disappointing to watch it happen in a persons own family or even on a Forum.

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I did not mean to offend you. The word “engineered” is printed on the can of TruFuel. The only time they use the word synthetic is to refer to the oil used in the 2 cycle products.

I posted a link to the website that explains what they are selling. I also shared my experience with the 2 cycle version. Offered to be helpful, not to get under your skin. I am sorry if it upset you.

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You titled this discussion ‘synthetic fuels’, and that means something. I thought you (and others reading it) might want to know.

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Thanks. By the same respect, I didn’t need to get snippy. So my apologies as well, and to all.

You and @texases are both very knowledgeable about a lot of things (genuine compliment to both), I just figured if there was something to be explained to straighten me out, someone would have done it. Texases comment didn’t work - it was just a reference to what is considered to be the first “synthetic” fuel, but it doesn’t make any distinction between “engineered” and “synthetic” (and I still don’t have one).

There are other brands of canned fuel - the first I ever bought was Stihl (when I bought a new chainsaw). It doesn’t say engineered or synthetic. Nor does Husqvarna’s. Anyway, I just didn’t have any reason to think there’s a specific category called engineered and a whole other category called synthetic.

LOL. I was using the term generically/casually, so I wouldn’t say I “tilted.” But that’s why if I needed to be straightened out someone could have done it. Out of curiosity, though, I did start poking around. I don’t think it’s as straightforward as you seem to think. I am just using the web, but there is nothing highly clear that comes up about it.

The best - but still reasonably unclear - source I’ve found is the ScienceDirect dictionary which leaves things slippery IMHO:

synthetic fuel Renewable/Alternative . a liquid or gaseous fuel derived from a source such as coal, shale oil, tar sands, or biomass, used as a substitute for oil or natural gas.

AND…

synthetic fuel A generic term [emphasis added] applied to any manufactured fuel with the approximate composition and comparable specific energy of a natural fuel. In the broadest definition, a liquid fuel that is not derived from natural occurring crude oil is a synthetic fuel.

Anyway, while I am curious, I also don’t care. It’s still not relevant to what I was asking about, even if minor correction was needed. I should have just said “canned” fuel…

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Thanks - and I feel for him and hope he’s well. When I returned here after a long absence, I thought I just remembered someone saying he’d gotten “fed up” with things or whatever.

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That says it the best right there.

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He might have passed. One of his health problems was a bad heart. Several heart attacks over the years. Even one while he was still active here.

16

Yes, I buy end of season gas from the local municipal airport. They have a pump and you can fill gas cans with it & pay in the office. Can’t pump directly into a vehicle due to tax concerns. But it’s “straight gasoline” without any oxgenators like ethanol in it.

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Avgas? Just out of curiosity what is the price?

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It trends around 2x gas pump prices. Last I saw it was $6.05

Very small muni, not a huge consumer of avgas.

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Interesting. What do you use it for?

And one of the most attractive things to be about the canned fuels is the shelf life. E.g. 5 years un-opened is pretty cool. Probably safe to assume that avgas would not have such a shelf-life?

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Just make sure you get unleaded avgas, most is leaded.