ok4450: Noise-wise, the only thing I can say at this point is that I noticed an extremely faint, what I would describe as a whirring sound as I was driving home. And it’s interesting you ask because it didn’t seem entirely normal, although it was not dramatic.
db4690: Well, as expected, Jiffy Lube filled the differential fluid, checked other fluids, drove the car around a while, apologized, and sent me home with the car. Of course, it would also have been nice if the dealer could have given me more than simply a statement that the differential fluid was missing–something concrete confirming the exact damage done due to the missing differential fluid, but somehow they didn’t seem able to do that–doesn’t give me much to stand on. But your suggestion to at least check with a lawyer is a good one–if I end up having the will! This whole thing has been a bit of an energy and spirit zapper.
The dealer should have done more than simply state the obvious about the gear oil missing. At the least they should have removed the drain plug and swabbed the bottom of the transaxle case a bit to see if there are chunks of metal lying in there.
That whirring noise could be the carrier bearings on the ring gear assembly or the support bearings on the countershaft and mainshaft; or all of the above and all due to oil starvation.
My question though is what about any noises that may exist at this point; especially in regards to any whining sound although that could also be interpreted as a whirring noise.
Even though I know nothing technically about cars, what you say (about at least swabbing the bottom of the transaxle case) makes sense. It just doesn’t seem as if the dealer was trying all that hard to help me out.
To my ears, the current noise is a soft whir, and it would be a real stretch to call it a whine.
A whirring noise could also be caused by a galded ring and pinion gearset due to no oil. If the trans is still making noise (whining, whirring, whatever) it’s damaged goods as refilling the oil will not fix rough countershaft or mainshaft bearings, galded ring/pinion gears, etc.
Normally on these things, a transmission could go for 50 or a 100 miles with no oil but there are generally signs (very subtle whine leading up to howling) leading up to a catastrophic failure. If the miles were at lower speeds and for shorter distances that interval could possibly be stretched out to far more than a 100.
We had a Subaru in once that was a bit over a quart low on gear oil and it took about a 1000 miles for a major problem (seizure of the mainshaft) to occur.
The car owner had the trans rebuilt in Colorado, moved to OK, and the trans seized right after the move.
It was difficult to sort the cause of that one out but apparently the shop in CO had installed the wrong dipstick into the transmission. They used one from an automatic which was longer than a manual. The stick level read FULL but in reality the trans was over a quart down.
I stared at that trans for several days while moving on with other jobs because I had no desire to put it together without knowing why the shaft seized. The answer finally slapped me in the face and I took the stick out onto the lot to compare it with other Subarus for sale; confirming what had just hit me. Wrong dipstick…
At this point, I’m just wondering if there would be ways for a mechanic to determine the exact damage that has been done without some lengthy exhaustive inspection that would cost me a fortune. Or, is it really impossible without them getting in deeply and taking things apart? If there are in fact some relatively quick tests that could be done, then am I allowed to ask for recommendations for a mechanic in my area via this forum?
About all I can suggest without disassembly of the transaxle is for someone who is experienced with a drivetrain like this is to drive it and listen to it after advising them of what has happened.
The next step would be to drain the transaxle and take a sample of the oil that came out. This could be examined for metal particles and debris and/or sent off for an oil analysis.
With the plug out and oil drained, that would be the time to fish around through the drain hole with a swab or small magnet and see what comes out.
For an hour of labor the dealer should have done all of the above; short of an oil analysis in a lab.
There’s a Mechanics Files at the top of this page that could steer you to someone in your area but what you really need to find is someone experienced in manual transmissions and differentials.
If you can find someone who is very familiar with the old VW air-cooled Beetles that could be a plus as the transaxle of a Subaru is similar to the Beetle units.
I like OK4450’s suggestion, but the only way to really know is a look-see.
However, OK4450, is there a readily accessible inspection plate (cover) on the bottom of this transaxle?? I would think that’d be the way to go if there is.
To the OP: OK4450 is perhaps the most knowledgable Subie guy on the forum, and certainly one of a handful of guys on the forum that I’d trust my own car to without question. He knows his stuff, and you’ll get the best advice available anywhere from him. I’ve been hangin’ out here for years and you can trust what he tells you.
@thesamemountbike, your comment is humbling and unfortunately, there is no inspection plate anywhere. Anything over and beyond oil analysis or fishing for debris through the drain hole means the transaxle has to come out for teardown.
It seems to me the dealer should have covered a few bases here and not left the OP hanging in the wind. Determining noises and debris inside the case should be enough to make a reasonable stab at whether the trans is on the last leg or not.
Due to these units having the front differential ring/pinion gear integral with the rest of the transmission and being part of the countershaft they’re fairly complex units to overhaul and parts costs alone can make it extremely prohibitive; especially with a ring/pinion set involved. The 3/4 gearsets are also matched and that set is expensive if needed not to mention the assortment of varying thickness shims, gaskets, shift forks, and so on.
There’s a lot of technical stuff involved and a crate of special tools needed due to the ring gear factor and it’s very time consuming even without having to work around those specialty tools.
If a transaxle is needed it should not be hard to find one. They’re very common and often reasonably priced or even dirt cheap depending. The critical part would be to make sure any replacement has the correct gear ratio as one would not want that front differential to vary compared to the rear.
The fear would be that a major problem would surface in 6 months, a year, or two years, and due to time lapse the lube facility would have an out based on the passage of time.
I agree with the few comments above on this page. If the differential (part of the transaxle assy) was empty and things got hot/dry/bound enough to cause the car to stop moving the unit is never to be trusted again. No competent mechanic would say otherwise. Like ok4450 said, removal and teardown is prohibitively expensive, and truth be told the lube shop shouldn’t be on the hook for a repaired or rebuilt unit. It should be replaced with a used unit of similar miles and age. Your car just needs to be put in the condition it was right before the breakdown.
It should be fairly easy to find a good used trans assembly for your car. I’d want nothing less.
I do think you should have gotten more for your money at the dealer, but in their defense, I’ve been the shop in that position, in the middle of a “he says she says” scenario, and I’d just as soon not do that again.
I’ve torn a few of these down and found the ring and pinion gears turning blue.
One of the last ones I did involved an elderly couple from Wichita Falls, TX who were going on vacation in their 20k miles Subaru. They stopped in Duncan, OK for an early lunch and had a fast lube next door change the oil while they ate. Once on the road again they noticed a very faint whine and did not associate that with the oil change. They were going to get that whine looked at when they arrived in OK City; about 80 miles away. They never made it.
About 50 miles down the road from Duncan the transaxle let go with a bang and it was towed in from there.
We pushed it into the shop and it sounded like a barrel full of rocks rolling downhill. The case was cracked all the way around and the internals wiped.
The fast lube admitted to draining the final drive by mistake and offered to foot the bill.
When the fast lube rep came around to see the torn down trans he asked me if it was going to cost 4 or 5 hundred bucks to fix. Ha; you wish. More like 5 grand+ for a new trans.
The service manager jumped on me for scaring the guy to death so my response was go to the parts department and find out for yourself. They both got an education very quickly and the fast lube refused to pay.
The elderly couple were very calm and philosophical about it. They agreed to pay the bill with no question and the husband said that after their vacation (done in a rental car) he had an attorney brother licensed by the bar in OK who would sort it all out.
Some months later the dealership got a letter from the couple thanking us and advising us that the fast lube decided to pony up after the lawyer’s letter.
the same mountainbike: Yes, bummer indeed! I really appreciate your concern.
asemaster: Good point about the used part. Yes, obviously a brand new differential would not be expected.
OK4450: I thank you again for your most thoughtful and knowledgeable remarks. Very interesting story too. If my vehicle had only 20K in mileage, I would do the same. But with close to 200K in mileage (197+ to be exact), it’s a little harder for me to be sure of the best way to proceed (also, alas I don’t have a brother who is an attorney!). Notwithstanding my anger with Jiffy Lube, part of me doesn’t want to sink too much more time (or needless to say money for repairs without an almost guaranteed reimbursement) into this–however the other part of me has quite a strong desire for justice. So I think I will call around some more and see if I can find someone who would be able to look at the car for a reasonable amount of time and price, and hopefully give me some useful information that could be presented.