Craig, I also keep track of avoidable and unavoidable breakdowns. The 1984 Impala over 200,000 miles (about 10,000 trips)had 4 breakdowns; water pump blew, wiper motor failed, rad hose burst (avoidable), and alternator failed. Four beakdowns in 10,000 trips is an availability of 9996/10000x100=99.96% in military term “mission avalability”. That is very good performance for a garden variety car with an average reliability record. It also compares well with industrial and military equipment reliability. Like you, I maintain a car pro-actively to avoid failure. The Ford Granada had numerous unavoidable breakdowns and my wife was reluctant to drive it. In the final analysis, I could not jack it up to rotate the tires, the jack simply disapppeared into the body without lifting the car! We lived in the rust belt at that time.
Great, Craig. Now we all know, for the millionth time, that you don’t like new cars. What does that have to do with the question:
“what is the simplest current generation car w/ the fewest electronic gadgets that can break down?”
Oooooh, you lucky duck. Yep, those were comfy, fun to drive buggies. And those bench seats, auto on the column, incredible visibility with tiny blind spots compared to today’s cars…sigh
Marnet
I don’t know that you should give up just yet. If you want to keep a car for a looooooooong time (like 400,000 miles), I still believe you will be better off getting a vehicle without power windows and power locks. Even the most reliable power windows will probably need repaired in that car’s lifespan and today’s newest cars will last that long if they are properly cared for.
This is what I was about to suggest. You can’t get away from airbags and computers, they are federally mandated. So, you want to find the makes and models where that stuff doesn’t fail very often. In reality, well designed electronics should be very trouble free, the urge to cut corners sometimes makes them less reliable. Watch out for new models from any company that is in financial hard times.
The fear of “electronic gadgets” is a bit out of date. I remember watching the movie Apollo 13 and the scary part for me was watching them shut down the computers to save power. Computers in those days frequently did not start back up after a power down. I’ve been doing computer hardware and software maintenance since the late 1970s. Before that I repaired stereo equipment. Believe me, todays computers are reliable as rocks compared to what was available 20 or even 15 years ago. Car makers tend to be a bit behind the curve on the latest, probably due to long lead times on designs, but the basic engine control computer and body control computers should almost be at the level of commodity components by now.
Wow. Now see, strictly as a consumer who knows NOTHING about mechanical things I didn’t know or think about any of what you’ve pointed out. Interesting!
Thanks for the education.
Marnet
"Great, Craig. Now we all know, for the millionth time, that you don’t like new cars. What does that have to do with the question:
“what is the simplest current generation car w/ the fewest electronic gadgets that can break down?” "
I answered that in my original post - None.
I think we can agree that the Ford Granada is in a class by itself. (-;
I agree, just drive what you like and maintain it like it was an aircraft. Find the best example of the best year of the best make/model and enjoy it. Don’t worry about other peoples’ statistic and averages, that’s all just noise.
Hey guys, I only posed a hypothetical question because I’ve been wondering about the long-term reliability and costs to maintain all the electronic aspects of my 2007 Impala.
I wasn’t trying to start any kind of a tiff between folks.
Why don’t we retire this thread before folks get cranky, ok.
I truly appreciate all the feedback, the information, the education that I get reading this board. And I know there are true differences of opinion, which I respect. But I surely don’t want folks getting into spats over my silly question.
Marnet
“I will never understand why you call all new cars “plastic” and “disposable.” Your love of old cars makes sense to me. Your disdain of all new cars, however, is completely illogical. They are not all plastic and they are not all disposable. There isn’t a single car out there that has a plastic frame or a plastic engine, and plastics have been proven to be safer, especially when used to make the dashboard and interior door panels. There is a guy who has had a Ford Ranger for more than 500,000 miles.”
I’ve driven plenty of new cars, even the high-end cars feel flimsy to me. I don’t believe anyone makes a car today that will be practical to preserve for the long term. Do you know of anything I can buy today that will outlive me? If not, I’m not really interested. At least the ford ranger is simple enough to work on yourself (mostly).
I do understand the advantages of plastics (primarily price and weight), but that is not my priority. I also understand that engines and frames are not made of plastic, however I did recently volunteer to replace a thermostat on my wife’s friend’s POS ford escort (or something) and (seriously) found the thermostat housing to be made from plastic. I would have laughed if my hands didn’t hurt from being cut up by all the unfinished sheet metal on the engine. Work on one of these things and then tell me if you think it’s “disposable.”
“Will you explain the absence of depreciation with your vehicle? Is it because it is only worth salvage value?”
After a certain age, the value is only a function of condition, not mileage or years. My daily driver was in pretty good condition when I bought it with 150K miles, now it is in much better condition with 416K miles. The prices of comparable cars has not moved much in the last 5 years, it’s probably gone up a little. Eventually, I will have to put a crate engine in mine (not anytime soon) and the value will increase (not that I’m going to sell it anyway). Deprecation is only a factor if you are going to eventually replace a vehicle. If you keep it indefinitely, it’s not an issue.
“If you looked objectively at the newer cars, I think you might not want one for yourself, but you might see some value in most of the new developments that have been done right. Look at Triedaq’s post below for examples.”
I understand the “value” of current automotive technology (I do have engineering degrees and I am a big F1 fan), but I am also a strong believer in the KISS principle. For daily use, current vehicles are much more complex than necessary. Most passed the point of diminishing returns a couple of decades ago. IMHO, the simplest technology that will accomplish the goal is almost always the best. I have no interest in owning a vehicle that will become impractical to maintain in a few years just because the technology has moved on. I don’t want to have to treat my vehicles like I treat my computers.
However, I would probably recommend one of these appliances to my daughter, who has no interest in cars beyond transportation and would be unlikely to do anything beyond basis maintenance (if that). She is probably representative of the average consumer, and a “disposable” car that is cheap to buy and operate is probably what she (and many others) really need/want (and I don’t feel bad when I see someone trash one). If I was in the car business (or the car loan business) that’s what I would be doing to maximize profits. I just can’t get any more interested in them than in my dishwasher.
Yeh, I loved those old cars too. Bench seats and and a adapted ‘4 on the floor’. The girls wore mini-skirts, sat REAL close and my darned hand always ‘slipped’ off the knob going from third to fourth. Ahh the good old days.
Take this with a grain of salt. Consumer Reports does not judge cars much older than a few years. I, for one, feel more comfortable with a 10 year old US brand than a 10 year old Toyota or Honda. Some US brands are doing very well lately and as good as the Japanese. Consumer Reports has turned recently on Toyota.
Yes, my '72 Vega GT was a very simple car to work on. Every time the carburetor jets fell out from the excessive engine vibration, it was incredibly easy to remove the top of the carb and screw them back in. I got to where I could do it in a few minutes. And the engine compartment was so roomy that when I had to replace the engine block at 60,000 miles, I did it without a lift by removing the head etc then stood on the ground inside the engine compartment and lifted the block out by myself. After that, the oil consumption dropped to only 750 miles per quart. Boy, those were the good old days! I’d sell it to you but someone else beat you to it at about 70,000 miles, when there was no longer anything visibly holding the front suspension to the rest of the car. And GM was way ahead of the ‘green’ curve by building a car that would quickly recycle itself to its base element, namely rust.
Hands down winner for the simplest, current generation car with the fewest gadgets to break down (both electronic and mechanical)is a Lotus Seven replica such as The Brunton Stalker (BruntonAuto.Com) which uses a Buick engine and almost 100% American components, or the World Class MotorSports Ultralite (WCMUltralite.Com) Which uses Honda S2000 running gear. Concerning “safety features”, you have to think a bit differently (and simpler!) about things like incredible handling that allows you to control the car–instead of a computer, brakes that will out-stop anything except another 7, instead of ABS, incredible visibility, a 4,5, or 6 point harness instead of a three point, A real (not decorative) roll bar instead of air bags, and a fuel cell instead of a more explosive tank for gasoline.
I have driven a SuperStalker (the yellow one on BruntonAuto.Com) and it is fantastic fun to drive, I would say about twenty times as much fun as my MR2, or a Miata. It will be my next car. Now if I can only get them to improve the weatherization a bit and add air-conditioning.
Now when you look at the photos, you asked for a SIMPLE car!
Those are cool, but I think I would prefer an authentic seven.
I was gonna suggest an Elise or Exige by Lotus. I don’t think they even come with power steering, but it weighs about 1 ton
Pretty cool little cars, but I’m not a big fan of their current toyota engines.
Look for one of those MexiBeetles . . a 60’s or 70’s VW air-cooled Beetle chassis completely re-done, all new parts . . . but with fuel injection and electronic ignition. Simple and basic, reliable and kinda cool. Rocketman
Maybe so, but I bet it’s the most fun thing attached to a Toyota engine since the MR2.
Thats for sure, I’ll take it over anything else with a toyota drive-train.