Honda had decided that they should offer the american market an suv, the easiest way to do that was a swap of sorts. Honda offered isuzu the use of their first minivan (first generation odyssey/ isuzu oasis) and isuzu gave them the rodeo to be badged a honda passport. The oasis I had actually had parts that said honda on the back side, with isuzu on the front.
Those minivans were great, too. Still small (actually mini) with standard opening rear doors with windows that rolled down…6 passenger comfort, a flip fold stowing rear seat (third row)…ahead of their time in 1996.
could you imagine if they had internet back in the 60s and everyone found out that the Chevy they bought was really an Isuzu or Mitsubishi that was really built over in Japan?
There is one thing I think should stay the same as the 50s and 60s; revealing a new vehicle. Today we get tons of “spy shots” and specs and whatnot that show off the vehicles design before it even hits the show room. Then, when they do the “big reveal” at a big name auto show, they expect everyone to be surprised and wowed
“could you imagine if they had internet back in the 60s and everyone found out that the Chevy they bought was really an Isuzu or Mitsubishi that was really built over in Japan?”
Good point. This is why I’m surprised at the criticisms heaped on CR by some. Back then, with a little reading, all that information was available from CR and others if buyers bothered to do the research. I had one work friend, a devout SAAB fan and with internet access and CR subscriber, to this day saying that the Saabaru 9-2 was still an exclusive SAAB product and the SAAB SUV was something more special than what it really was. People still pick and choose as to what they “want” to believe regardless of the number of sources that say otherwise. I was “shocked” back when people wanted to sue GM for making Caddys they bought with stock GM drive trains, like it was a revelation to the rest of us at that time. Guess some one didn’t do a little research.
We can all disagree as I sometimes do too, with their opinions (CR) but their information is very accurate with just a few exceptions, they are more than willing to point out when in error. There are other publications too, that even with sponsorship give good reliable information if you disregard their opinions. That cars and parts are made world wide is so obvious in every make and model, it has always seemed silly to differentiate cars by nationality. Referring to cars as Asian or American as pointed out by many already, has more to do with something else than reality.
I think the dates are a little early, but I never had trouble figuring out where cars came from; even major subsystems like transmissions or engines. I used sources like Car and Driver, Road and Track, and Motor Trend. They all gave us the straight scoop on where the autos were built and major parts came from. There may not have differentiated between Detroit 3 assembly and parts between the USA and Canada, but otherwise, they provided timely and accurate info.
MikeInNH June 17 Report “For every GM car suffering an intake manifold gasket problem there’s another make suffering an equally serious problem.”
Show me…Nothing comes close to the number of GM cars effected by this…NOT EVEN CLOSE
Shall we discuss Subaru head gaskets?
They were a problem in the 70s.
They were a problem in the 80s.
They were a problem in the 90s.
They were a problem in the early 2000s.
It’s claimed this problem is resolved in the latest incarnations. My view is let them age a few more years and see if this is really resolved.
Being curious, how many GM intake manifold gaskets failed?
How many failed out of how many total cars?
As I’ve stated previously, I’ve actually seen those problematic cars day in an day out and unless you have been there and done that then you simply have no idea of the number of problems that exist.
Let me add this. One multi-line dealer I worked for (I was a Subaru guy) also carried the Mazda line of cars. I did NOT get involved too deeply with the Mazdas and those were handled entirely by my best friend there. My involvement with Mazda was occasional only.
However, we worked side by side and of course were swapping automotive war stories and notes back and forth all day long about car problems, etc.
From what I saw and heard the Mazdas were the most reliable of all of the Japanese cars even though they do not get the PR the others do.
“Being curious, how many GM intake manifold gaskets failed?
How many failed out of how many total cars?”
I don’t know the overall numbers, but I have a 1998 Regal (3.8L V6) and a 2003 Olds Silhouette (3.4L V6) and neither has had this problem. My FIL had an Olds with the 3.8L without problems and now a Buick LeSabre with the 3.8L. Neither of those cars have had the problem. I believe that Mike is specifically referring to the 3.8L engine. He has mentioned this issue before. Maybe I’m just lucky, but I’ve never heard anyone around me complain about leaking gaskets.
Having had 3 such GM cars (2 Chevies and an Olds, all V8s) with those pesky intake manifold gaskets, I had the one on my 1988 Caprice fail, while the ones on the 1980 Olds 88, and the a 1984 Impala stayed intact. That’s one in three failures or 33 1/3%, a pretty horrendous rate!!!
The Olds was traded at 71,200 miles while the Impala was kept till over 300,000 miles. The Caprice with the gasket failure was sold at 141,000 miles. The failure occured at about 100,000 miles.
All three cars were maintained religiously by competent shops.
"Being curious, how many GM intake manifold gaskets failed?
How many failed out of how many total cars? "
Who knows…it’s in the MILLIONS
I do know that my friend in NY who owns a GM dealership had to put on 2 extra mechanics just to handle the problem…Now that Pontiac has been dropped…he just sells GMC trucks of the GM lines…Still sells Nissan and now Hyundai. Still services the Pontiacs though…
Other manufacturers had problems too…never said they didn’t…BUT NOTHING effected more cars over such a long period of time…This problem was reported to GM 2-3 years after they started using that gasket…And GM did nothing for almost another 10 years…effecting MILLIONS of cars…
Toyota had it’s sludge problem…fixed within 2 years of being reported…Nissan had exhaust manifold problem…fixed within 2 years of first being reported.
Numbers are irrelevant anyway and there is far more to Recalls, TSBs, chronic non-Recall and TSB related problems than you are aware of.
You state the sludge problem is fixed. Is it? Or is it fixed because a class action suit was settled? A suit settlement does not mean for one nano-second that the problem goes away.
What I am telling you is that the people who actually service Asian cars day in and day out will face Recalls, TSB related problems, and many chronic problems for which a TSB will never be issued.
Name a 100 problems related to Ford or Chevy cars and a 100 comparable problems can be found with Honda or Toyotas.
Tester made the comment a few years ago about calling someone out when they post erroneous information and Lord knows there’s enough of that. From small issue to large, it happens every single day.
Most of the time I don’t call someone out. other times I do it respectfully, and on a few instances it has become volatile.
While I agree 100% with you on some issues I know for a fact that you’re dead wrong on many of them. It’s simply because you espouse an opinion on something for which you have had no real world, hands-on experience.
You even started a thread about GM being a bunch of sleazeballs over the revised On-Star service? Remember that one? (Which you were dead wrong on.)
"You state the sludge problem is fixed. Is it? Or is it fixed because a class action suit was settled? "
Yes it is fixed…and if you look at the lawsuits…they were filed AFTER the problem was fixed. The class action suit wasn’t settled until 10 years AFTER the problem was found…
"You even started a thread about GM being a bunch of sleazeballs over the revised On-Star service? "
Yes I do remember that one…that’s the one where AGAIN you accused me of saying something I never said…So typical of you…You can’t argue against the facts so you seem to make them up as you go. You TRIED to make the argument on something I NEVER said…
Yes you have worked a lot more on cars then I have…so what…That’s about as significant as when Sara Palin tried to explain how much foreign policy experience she had because Alaska was the closest state to Russia…
I can’t tell you how many times you’ve mis-quoted me and argued against something I NEVER EVER said…All you have to do is look in this thread…You accused me of saying that people who drive vehicles from the Big-three only drive them 100k miles…ANYONE with a 6th grade reading level knows I NEVER said that…You’ve done this type of stuff countless number of times.
You seem to get in a hissy-fit when someone somewhere says anything BAD about the Ford Taurus…You seem to take it so personally…For several years they were ABSOLUTE JUNK throw-away vehicles…Sorry but it’s the truth. Good for you that you have a good one…GREAT…But don’t tell me that I’m wrong when I tell you that I know many people who spent THOUSANDS of dollars just to keep the car running…all before the car reached 100k miles…Yet some of these same people bought other vehicles (like a Toyota Corolla) and they aren’t having anywhere close to the same problem.
GM and Ford have made great strides…good for them…I truly hope they continue this trend…But as I’ve stated countless number of times…As long as they have this “Make the most profit this next quarter” and giving out huge bonuses to executives when they do…instead of looking long term like Toyota and Honda does. Toyota has had problems recently…I’ve admitted that…But they’ve seem to have learned from their mistakes and have taken corrective action. They think LONG-TERM…They don’t give bonuses on how well they’ve done in the past quarter.
Fellas, just noticing that this discussion is getting a little heated. I know this is a contentious topic with strongly held opinions on both sides, but is it worth getting angry and pointing fingers? Let’s just please try to keep the debate to a low roar, OK?
Actually, what Mike said was that most people don’t keep their cars past 100,000 miles. While I don’t know, I’d like to know, I can guess that is the case. Does anyone know?
And, I am also one who said a Dodge Caravan might well be a good choice for anyone who doesn’t plan to keep it more than 100,000 miles, which certainly implies it might not be a good idea over 100,000 miles. Based on my own experience, of needing an appointment in every place I visited with my Caravan which was in the 120,000 to 180,000 range, I would not want to try to drive one much more than that.
So, I came closer than Mike to saying at least one very common US model isn’t a good idea over 100,000 miles. And, that is how I feel about it. Is it right? I don’t know. Most of us tend to avoid a make/model if we have problems with one of them. And, I certainly had problems with one Caravan. I cannot say I will never have another, but I can say that is my present plan.
irlandes June 26 Report
Actually, what Mike said was that most people don’t keep their cars past 100,000 miles. While I don’t know, I’d like to know, I can guess that is the case. Does anyone know?
I don’t have hard facts, but I’d wager that’s right for NEW car buyers - historically, they only keep their cars 4-5 years on average, which means they won’t pile on that many miles.
However, someone buys the car after that person is done with it and they find out about long-term reliability.
The average car built today has a 15-16 year lifespan. Accidents take out plenty, but for an average mileage, that’s still 150,000+ miles on most vehicles. In reality, the people who brag about cars going 200-300k tend to drive far more than average, and most of the time that’s highway mileage, which is actually a pretty easy life for a car.
Personally, I think mileage alone is a terrible way to judge a car’s long-term durability.
I want to see these (and other factors) judged:
*Mileage
*Age (yrs)
*Hours of operation
*mean and standard deviations for engine RPM
*numbers of starts
*number of shifts
etc…
Some components will wear more simply because of one of those factors, and it may not be mileage (seals will age based on years, not miles, for example… or transmissions may wear based on shifts, not mileage)…
Back in the 1950s, there was a lot of “brand loyalty”. For many people, the car would have to be a real lemon for the person to switch to another manufacturer. GM had it figured out that a person who initially bought a Chevrolet would ultimately move up to an Oldsmobile or a Buick. However, by the mid 1960s, the top of the line Chevrolet offered everything a Buick offered, so many purchasers stayed with the Chevrolet. When the quality of GM products declined, customers lost the brand loyalty. Volkswagen made larger models to supplement the VW Beetle–the Fastback, Squareback and the 411 series. These senior VW models had all kinds of problems and VW drivers who had upgraded from the Beetle often moved to Asian makes when they had problems with the senior VW cars.
I had good luck with American Motors products years ago, and when looking for a new car, would check the AMC lineup first. However, today I go with the vehicle that fits my needs with the best price. I have no brand loyalty.
I once said I would never buy a Ford because of the lemon we called a 1993 Tempo. However, I have been forced to eat my words because Ford has improved dramatically since then, as have American cars in general. However, I would still go for a Camry if I had a choice.
my crappy ford was the Contour, circa 1995. Now, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy one if I needed to and it met my buying criteria. They’re actually the only American brand car that I’m rooting for.