VW is investigating other diesel engines in their lineup have the trick software.
There is no way they don’t know this information already. This is nothing more then a political stunt…to make it look like they are being a good corporate citizen.
The circumstances will tell all, but I think it is possible that upper management did not know about all instances of the software cheat. All the group that installed the errant software needed to know is that it was done for other engines. They could do it without telling anyone and provide plausible deniability for the bosses. This has been done before. President Reagan denied knowing about the Iran Contra affair, and this assertion was corroborated by William Casey, Reagan’s head of the CIA. Casey said in a death bed confession that Mr. Reagan often wished that something could be done about the hostages in the US Embassy in Teheran. Casey and a few others took it upon themselves to do the deed because they thought that Reagan would approve. The climate within the organization was such that trading arms for hostages seemed acceptable. Reagan denied knowledge of Iran Contra when it became public, and in light of Casey’s version, I believe him. That might (MIGHT) be the case for the new set of emissions software cheats. That doesn’t make it right, of course, and VW should be dealt with harshly.
President Reagan denied knowing about the Iran Contra affair, and this assertion was corroborated by William Casey
He may have denied it…but I don’t believe for a minute that he didn’t know about it. It really scares me to think that someone only as high as 2-star general is able to do that kind of back handed deal without anyone above him knowing about it…
Upper management had better know what’s going on with their software. There are certain types of software validation steps that corporations need to provide to the FTC in order for their software to be certified by them…And part of that certification is internal audits. It’s very difficult (if not impossible) to forge these audits without upper management knowing about it.
My company designs and makes telecom solutions. We have to do several types of software and hardware validation for the FCC. Sometimes the FCC commissions their own audit.
It might be possible…but something of this magnitude…I seriously doubt it.
This could get into a food fight pretty fast with current events so I’m not going there.
The thing is, what does it matter if the CEO knew or not? The result was the same and I really don’t think that cheating on the EPA certification will rise to the criminal level. If so, maybe it’ll be important who knows, but right now its just a matter of not trusting any of the test results. Of course the struggle within the two branches of the family could well have kept information from one side to the other.
The result was the same and I really don't think that cheating on the EPA certification will rise to the criminal level.
It already is…it’s called fraud. VW is selling a vehicle that they say meets the US standard for emissions. They PURPOSELY and WILLINGLY designed a vehicle that did NOT meet the standards for emissions they agreed upon. That is fraud.
Last night while watching TV (don’t do much of it), I noticed a VW ad. I was a bit surprised thinking they might want to clean up the mess before bragging about their cars again. But apparently not, big business back at it as before. This is getting old.
VW is in a world of hurt precisely because they did commit fraud in order to sell the cars they wanted to. The fines are going to be astonishing; much higher than those assessed against Toyota and GM in recent years, and that is just in the USA. I think the fines alone will be several billion dollars.
William Casey said that he kept the plot from Reagan so that the President could honestly deny that he knew of it. @MikeInNH, what 2 star general are you thinking of? Casey was the head of the CIA; a member of the the Administration. He wasn’t in the military at that point. If you haven’t read the book already, Bob Woodward interviewed William Casey on his death bed at Casey’s request and the confession turned into a book. I read it about 25 years ago.
Yup he was the director of the CIA…but his role as a 2-star general gave him a lot more insight into how to do the deals he did.
Yes…I know Casey denied that Regan was involved…he was shielding Regan.
Either way…it’s EXTREMELY scary to think that a Rouge operative is able to run outside the laws of this nation and sell arms to a country that declared war on the US.
If you do your research…you’ll find that Reagan was briefed in advance about every weapons shipment to Iran. I’m far more comfortable with Reagan knowing about it and sanctioning it…(which the documents seem to bear out)…then I am with a ex 2-star general and CIA head doing this on their own with NO-ONES approval or knowledge. That is real scary.
...it's EXTREMELY scary to think that a Rouge operative is able to run outside the laws of this nation and sell arms to a country that declared war on the US.
Much easier for a President to, in effect, give the same nation $150B to buy arms.
;-]
I expect it isn’t just VW that is investigating all its engines for this problem. Pretty much every vehicle sold in the USA, the emissions data is going to be at question now. I think there are many nervous Nellies in car manufacturer board rooms around the world.
I’m not sure I buy the idea that the general consumer was defrauded. How were they defrauded? They got better mileage and performance than they should have. How were the consumers harmed? True they did not get an engine that ran as clean as they thought but that’s a little tougher to show damage. The consumer benefited from it.
Now the diminished value is another issue that will need to be dealt with but I think it will be a tough row to hoe showing the consumer was defrauded and therefore a CEO or manager is criminally liable by defrauding the consumer.
We really need to see what is going to be required to get the cars to meet the EPA requirements though.
I have said it before and I will say it again. I think the costumer had been defrauded mostly because they are the ones who get the most exposure to the pollutants. These particulate materials that we breath, cause heart attacks, strokes and cancers. I know some think this is not as big of a deal, but a lot of this emission controls are the reason behind us living longer.
but it gets canceled out by hitting the sauce and smoking like a chimney . . .
I'm not sure I buy the idea that the general consumer was defrauded. How were they defrauded?
They were sold a vehicle that was suppose to meet the EPA requirements AND get a certain mpg…Now people who live in states that have emission tests - I’m sure that when this is all over the EPA will require that the vehicles be upgraded or they won’t pass inspection…now that fix may give them WORSE gas mileage…thus NOT what they were sold.
Please don’t forget the environmental impact. We’re still not sure how widespread this is.
“I’m not sure I buy the idea that the general consumer was defrauded”
Huh?
Below is the first definition listed for “fraud” by Merriam-Webster:
deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right
People parted with something of value (their money) in order to buy a product that was not what it was purported to be (intentional perversion of the truth) on the part of VW. I believe that VW’s actions fit that definition precisely.
I guess it could be argued the owner didn’t get defrauded, at least up to the point where the car’s software is changed back to the way it should have been in the first place. So far that hasn’t happened. But going forward, I think the owner could in fact say they’ve been defrauded unless they are fairly compensated for the loss of mpg and performance that occurs when eventually the software is fixed. And what’s fair to one person may not seem fair to another, so figuring that all out, it’s going to be a tough row to hoe I think.
I guess one idea is to just let the cars affected stay the way they are, and not force the owners to change the software. The result would be a compromise, the owners keeping the mpg and performance they bought, but the rest of us breathing less clean air.
@GeorgeSanJose
Do you really think CA BAR would agree “to just let the cars affected stay the way they are” . . . ?!
I guess it could be argued the owner didn't get defrauded, at least up to the point where the car's software is changed back to the way it should have been in the first place.
Yes he did. The vehicle was suppose to meet the EPA’ standard. It didn’t. So every time the owner drives the car around it’s polluting more then it should. Anytime you sell something that doesn’t meet the specs of what is in writing says it does…it’s FRAUD.
Do you really think CA BAR would agree "to just let the cars affected stay the way they are?
It’s hard to predict. After all, that’s the agency which forced me to drive my carb’d, points and condenser 1970’s pollution spewing truck with a 302-V8 for a couple of months, rather than what I normally drive, my 1600 cc 4 banger Corolla with electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition. And why? Because the Corolla was just a touch over the allowed HC emissions for that make/model/year.
What if the fix is voluntary, including s cash payment? How much would you need from VW to compensate for reducing mpgs to EPA values and add a urea system?