Prius 2012 Oil Change

CSA "I get my survey every year. What do you think I write on my Annual Car Reliability Survey before mailing it back and do you think they’re all done accurately ?
"
Maybe not. But the sample is large and I will trust your opinion, more then that of paid lackeys from Motor Trend and Car and Driver. I believe we all are basically honest, including those of us who regularly subscribe to CR

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/05/how-consumer-reports-tests-cars/index.htm

And no, CR doesn’t use “off the shelf”, inexperienced secretaries and custodians for their car evaluations. Their facility looks pretty much like they describe and the observed testing seems to go along with this article. I have no reason not to believe their claims. They are open for tours.

http://www.sae.org/servlets/sectionEvent;WebLogicSession=cszSTXnQmXSWXyL7RNNN4HRy1GBJvrZZhQfHwTW3zG6N3PTx8p7J!637138833?OBJECT_TYPE=SectionEventAdmin&PAGE=getEventDetails&HEIR_CODE=MS071&EVT_SCHED_GEN_NUM=194440&PROD_GRP_CODE=SECTN

@meanjoe75fan, only 2.5 quarts of lubricating oil is recovered from each gallon of waste oil when it is recycled. This means that 1.5 quarts is not recovered. I do not believe that 1.5 quarts (38%) of 5000 mile old oil or even 10,000 mile old oil is all contamination. The process is not perfect and does not extract all the lubricating oil that might be there. Here’s where I got the info concerning re-refining output (4th bullet):

http://www.deq.state.ms.us/mdeq.nsf/page/Recycling_UsedMotorOil?OpenDocument

The rest of it is interesting, too.

Ok…,CSA.
.http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/11/consumer-reports-auto-testing-top-six-myths.html

@dagosa, who tests the coffee maker in the Fiat 500 when it’s available? ; )

The Significance Of CR Car Reliability Ratings (A Little Knowledge Can Be A Dangerous Thing)

Question (To Follow Text):

CR Uses Little Symbols (Circles) To Show Reliability Ratings Based On Their Surveys:

Much Above Average
Above Average Average
Average
Worse Than Average
Much Worse Than Average

The ratings are based on problems reported by respondents. The percentage of respodents reporting problems in different trouble spots (electrical, engine, transmission, brakes, body, suspension, etcetera) out of the total respondents reporting on a particular, Make, Model, Model-Year, Engine Size . . . over 300 different ones) determine the reliability rating. These ratings and symbols are used to rate Predicted Reliability of new cars, too.

Question:
How many percentage points separate Much Below Average from Below Average, Much Above Average from Above Average, or let’s say all the way from Much Below Average (filled Black Circle) to Much Above Average (filled Red Circle) ?

Another Question:
I read the ratings and I check them out when buying a car and I know how many percentage points we’re talking about, here, but do most consumers know ?

CSA

Most municipalities now have a used oil dump station where DIYers can take oil, antifreeze, waste paint. etc.

Our dump takes used fridges, microwave ovens, TVs and other stuff as well. The disposal fee for a fridge is only $15. The freon is recovered by a third party contractor before the fridge is sent to the shredder.

Our local Co-op takes used oil as well.

Our Electric Power Supplier (Rural Electric Cooperative) Will Pick Up An Old Refrigerator And Pay You $30. Other For-Profit Companies In My Area Pay $35 Or $40.
CSA

CSA " do most consumers know? "
It 's pretty much up to the reader. Just read the intro in the annual car report or the web site. I don’t get your point. If you are looking at buying a compact pick up and Your choice comes down to a Colorado or a Tacoma, and you decide to use a CR buyers guilde for information but can’t figure out what all those black marks are for the Colorado, then you can’t or won’t read the intros.

I don’t see any point in knit picking the differences in one year between a half black and a full black as far as percentages are concerned as it’s a total waste of time. I can pretty much darn well tell buy looking at the reports over a several year period when both models made few changes, which make had poor reliability evaluations by owners and which one didn’t. It’s really that simple…really, it is.

Personally, I hope more people don’t care to read about the repair incidents of a Colorado or other competing brands in a CR guide and buy one regardless. Toyota needs the competition for me to negotiate a lower price on the Tacoma. It works for me !

Over the years, my cars generally had problems in the trouble areas listed for them. I think those who pooh-pooh CR actually believe they simply know better, based on personal limited experience.

Doc…
Our municipality is too small, like most in Maine, but we do have an area collection facility and are scheduled times and allotments for disposal. It’s a little bit of a pain, but once having a friend in the land fill business, i know what it used to be like and feel the inconvenience is well worth it.

It’s shameful what we dumped in our landfills for years without concern. Yes, there is cash in other peoples trash and because of our large land mass, there are still influences trying to turn our state into a dumping ground for all NewEngland and beyond. The polution that corporations got away with for years in our Forrest, lakes and steams is astonishing. We are slowly taking it back, along with our health. But we still have a long way to go to enlist the cooperation of everyone who pollutes.

That Is The Point ! You Just Made It As Do Many Readers !
" . . . but can’t figure out what all those black marks are for the Colorado . . . '
" Personally, I hope more people don’t care or read about the poor record of a Colorado . . . "

Black marks must mean a vehicle is unreliable, right ?

CR says, “Models that score a [filled black circle] (Much Worse Than Average) are not necessarily unreliable, but have a higher problem rate than the average model. Similarly, models that score a [solid red circle] (Much Better Than Average) are not necessarily problem free, but had relatively fewer problems than average.”

It’s a great sales gimmick for CR and sells magazines for them. Most people do what you do and just look at those circcles and make up their own ratings.

I have the opposite take on the ratings than you have. “Poor ratings” (I don’t consider average to be poor as you do and I see the Toyota Tacoma V-6 rated as average) on a vehicle like the Colorado make better car deals for me. I buy these average cars and have virtually no problems with them.

Again, I ask, What difference are we talking about here between the ratings (see my previous post, above) ? How big a difference between vehicles that you perceive as poor reliability, like the aaverage Colorado, and the vehicle you say competes with it ________________ (please name it) is there ?
Give the percentages, please.

CSA

CR’s main purpose is to sell subscriptions; nothing more. CR has to put on the smiley face at all times and promote the idea that they’re 99% accurate or no one would bother. Plant the seed, so to speak.

I would put more credence into CR if they would investigate (time and money prevents this) every complaint about a car. It’s amazing how many complaints are made without providing the entire story which can then swing things the other direction.
People have destroyed their engines by having the very first oil change performed at a quicky lube and go ballistic when told warranty won’t pay. They flat refuse to accept that the problem is not related to the car itself and blame the car maker and dealer both until hxxx freezes over.

Now. What did I base my comment about CR using office help and so on in testing? From CR themselves.
A few years back I emailed CR and asked some pointed questions. In the response CR told me that some of the testing was done by office help and so on.
(That email response was lost along with a lot of other info when my old PC crashed in a big way so it’s history.)

Speaking of extended oil changes.
Low miles engine, extended oil change regimen, my hand.

Oil Sludge Ford Motor 2

CSA…page 188, 2013 CR buying guide

Here is where your reasoning is very suspect. You care more about the individual differences in problem rates in each and every Catagory then the cumulative difference. There is a specific problem rate difference of as much as 3 to 4 percent between a solid red and a solid black. Solid red often means NO PROBLEMS have ever been reported and Sollid black means greater then three percent. Individually, it may mean little…but, here is this point you don’t seem to understand.

In your questionnaire from CR the trouble spots, you are only asked for repairs over the last year…not over the life of the car. Each year is an independent event with a % assigned to it for that year which is then assigned the appropriate dot for a particular make and model.

A three percent difference every year In one area, over five years is a fifteen percent difference over five years, at the very least if the differences remain constant. If that difference exists over a many of the 17 Catagories, which it does in many cars, you then accumulate a total that is very significant. For just two catagories, You can have a car that gives you 15 % more likelyhood of a trans failure and 15% more likelyhood of a motor or 30 % more likely either one or the other will occur; that’s over just five years. Over a ten year period you’re looking at a 60% increase on at least one of these two items occuring. It can mean a difference of thousands of dollars, well beyond the difference in price if you consider all the Catagories.

If you compare your repairs in your newer cars to cars of the same make in older models, you may be very content because all cars have shown improvement. Others like Toyotas improve at a rate that keeps them
above average compared to other makes in the same year.

I know lots of people who buy less reliable cars and think their problem rates are average…because they don’t know the difference.

Ok…some of their testing was done by office help ?

Without specifics, office help could measure the knee clearance in the rear seats. Heck, you or I could do that. If they specifically said they drove the cars through a handling course you might have a point. I would invite you too to tour their facilities…I see nothing different then what the have said in the acticles I have referenced. Neither I or a close friend and engineer who lives closer and has visited much more recently, have any reason not to trust their articles on how they conduct their tests.

“A three percent difference every year In one area over five years is a fifteen percent difference over five years, at the very least.”

I totally disagree with your logic. A person is generally going to buy one of the vehicles of a given model year, but not all five. Furthermore, from my experience, a problem that shows up on many vehicles (and every manufacturer has them) is corrected, often with revised parts or procedures. This had been my experience more often than not and much of this is handled while the car is under warranty (which is where a warranty like GM’s 100,000 mile/60 month warranty shines).

You’re talking a 3 to 4 percent difference in respondents’ claimed problems. Out of how many cars ? Take a million surveys and divide by 300 car models and divide that by 6 model years. Let’s say you get an average of 600 surveys per vehicle. Some vehicles receive way more than that and some way less than that. How many complaints per survey ? Who knows how many each car received ?

Let’s say that a particlar trouble spot on a certain vehicle received 39 complaints about Body Integrity and another vehicle received 40 complaints. Still, a third vehicle received a whopping 41 !
The first car scores a Much Worse Than Average Rating, The second car an Average Rating, and the third a Much Better Than Average rating. That’s the significance we’re talking about, here . . . 3 or 4 percent.

It would be much more meaningful if CR didn’t translate data into shaded dots. Actual numbers of problems reported per model, per model year, per trouble spot would reflect both how many surveys are represented and how frequent the problems are. The way it’s currently done is more dramatic and sells more magazines, but I find to be of little use.

By the way, very few vehicles in very few problem spots have 5 consecutive years of black spots as you used in your example. I have to try not to laugh, but in my example above using Body Integrity, one vehicle did suffer that rating for 4 years straight. It’s a Jeep Wrangler. I laugh because if somebody wants a vehicle like a Wrangler, what else is like a Wrangler ? Besides, do they expect the same Body Integrity as on a car made for highway use ? Nonetheless, this “poor” Jeep rating drags down the whole overall Jeep Wrangler rating (which is just Average, by the way).

"Body Integrity: Squeaks or rattles, seals, and/or weather stripping, air or water leaks, loose interior trim and moldings, wind noise."
Looking at the black spot, one can’t tell which of those things the Jeep did “poorly” in, but I hope none of those Wranglers had wind noise !

I do look at these ratings. I don’t take them too seriously. I do my homework. I choose vehicles based on sound sources and information.

My Mr. Coffee, a CR Best Buy from years ago is still making some mighty fine brew.

CSA

CSA…it isn’t “logic” it’s called statistics. I’m just telling you the way they are used. You can make up stuff, I’m not. Just like you asked me to do (I’m a good little boy) ;=) I’m referencing the CR and how they use the percentages. You keep saying readers don’t know how these percentages are used. I’m telling you how. .You are just making up the statistics that CR may or may not use. I can’t address that, only what you asked me to read. And, I can’t address who actually pays for the repair and neither does CR. You may disagree with how CR uses their stats but that’s not my concern, only that you know how. Also, a person buys a car to last over a five to ten year period, not for one year…may be you do being in the top 1 %

As far as Jeeps and there integrity problems. I could tell you my experience too . I use my 4Runner and Taomas off road and they hold together integrity wise on the road better then my friends wrangler WHO Dosen’t. That proves nothing for a perspective buyer in and of itself but compared to CR, it makes sense. Just take a pair of calipers and a tape measure, climb under a Tacoma, a Colorado and a Jeep or what ever. I do this before I buy a truck(or a computer)…Measure off road components and design. Pop a few trim panels off and look,at the mechanics underneath. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see why stuff fails. If you have all the mechanical insight you claim, you could probably validate much of what any statistic says imperially…that includes Jeeps and their poor reputation for body integrity.

2013 CR Buying Guide

New Car Prediction
Chevrolet Colorado - Average
Toyota Tacoma V-6 - Average
Jeep Wrangler - Average

Used Car Verdicts
Chevrolet Colorado - Worse Than Average
Toyota Tacoma V-6 - Worse Than Average
Jeep Wrangler - Above Average

“Just take a pair of calipers and a tape measure, climb under a Tacoma, a Colorado and a Jeep or what ever. I do this before I buy a truck…Measure off road engineering components and design. Pop a few trim panels off and look,at the mechanics underneath. You don’t have to be a rocket scientists to see why stuff fails.”

I didn’t realize you were an automotive engineer. Did you come up with the same thing CR did ?

Statistics ? Please tell me how many vehicles were evaluated in each model year for the above vehicles. I can’t find it in my CR.

CSA

Good evening to you too CSA…(tap)dancing lessons are good for the soul.

You Can Have The Last Word . . . “Input,” In This Case.
Have A Good Evening, Dagosa.

CSA

If this same discussion about CR was held in a social gathering, would there be a lighter tone to it?
I know the net has sometimes brought out the argumentative side of me.