Save your money and do as follows: Use a hammer and a cold chisel near the endplate to open a used filter. It makes no new chips; just cuts the metal. Airplane people must have money to burn!
OP, if someone wants to claim that Frams are bad then simply ask them to point you to one verifiable case of a Fram filter causing any degree of engine damage whatsoever, no matter the mileage, oil change frequency, etc. or a lawsuit filed over them.
I’ve been asking this question for several years and go figure; no answer yet.
well, same as cars, you can buy a Kia or A Mercedes, both do the same job. realissue with me is constuction, if you change oil every 3000 miles any piece of crap will do, in fact, no filter will do fine as someone did note above, oil filters are pretty much worthless in todays modern engines and oils. However, having no choice Fram construction just stinks and granted, no failures etc but for the same price there are too many alternatives out there to the orange garbage can!
Curious.
Exactly what technical training and automotive experience do you have that leads you to the conclusion that “today’s motor oils” do not get contaminated and the oil filter is a worthless appendage?
How do you explain the millions of people who use Frams and do NOT change the oil at 3k intervals.
I also ask again (for the 'nteenth time). Can you name one person/engine/car/ that has suffered damage because of a Fram filter and can you point to one lawsuit because of a Fram filter?
Frams are probably “good enough” and should not result in any catastrophic engine problems. I agree that if they were as bad as some folks seem to think they would not still be available. However, I suspect that frams (as well as the other “McParts” brands) are not the best quality available. It would be difficult, if not impossible to tell if they may contribute to shortening engine life, and I would prefer not to find out. The simplest solution is to use the OEM filters for your car, the price difference should not be significant and you won’t have to worry about it. My OEM oil filters (made by Hengst, I believe) cost about $15, I could probably get a McParts filter for $10. What’s the point, saving $5 on a $60 oil change? It just doesn’t really seem worth it.
Never said oil does not get contaminated, I said that oil filters are pretty much useless on todays engines with todays oil formulations. As to filters, I go with a filter with the greatest flow, filtering to me is useless as just about all particles released today are less then 20 microns and would not be filtered via any over the counter filter out there. More of catastrophic prevnetion more then anything. As to why I say this, over the past 10 years I have done my own multiple expirements going 15,000 miles between changes using the same filter and changing the fitler between the oil changes and the oil analysis results are the same. Leaving the filter on for 15,000 miles or changing it half way makes no difference (by the way, the synthetic oil is still serviceable at that mielage as well). Now, it does depend on the type of driving done and the climate. Short trips in Maine in January make a world of difference from Florida with a 10 mile drive every time you start a cold engine.
You defend Fram with a passion, seems to me you work for them,. Alternatives at the same cost exist, granted, no publicized cases of Fram failures but the construction is poor, everyone does seem to agree on that, just not poor enough to have multiple failures. So they do meet the requirements, so does recycled oil, assume you use that as well? They just buy a lot of shelf space at most auto outlets, why, the American public wants cheap price and that is all they really want, the cheaper the better.
To answer that offbase question, no I do not work for Fram.
What I argue against is the baseless statements made by a bunch of backyard engineers who cut filters open and see aliens hiding in there.
One guy cuts open a filter, sees things, and it spawns a number of internet analysts following suit.
It also develops a following of the uninformed; I read, I heard, I was told, yada, yada, yada.
Regarding your oil analysis and the comment that a filter is worthless, car and filter makers, auto engineers, shops and mechanics, will all disagree with you. If you’re going to use that logic, then scrap air filters, fuel filters, PCV filters, etc.
As to oil analysis, what are you having analyzed? The chemical composition or the size of the suspended particles?
If the oil is relatively clean, particle size wise, after 10k miles then I would say the filter has done a pretty good job.
Fram filters meet or exceed SAE standards and warranty requirements for new car makers. If it’s good enough for them, it should be good enough for anybody else.
This is lengthy, but addresses that Fram “cheap construction” theory.
Note the “flimsy” end discs complained about have been around for 38 YEARS.
Thank you for the e-mail regarding the construction and quality of Fram oil
filters. We welcome the opportunity to be of
service.
Fram filters meet the requirements of the original equipment filter designed for
a specific engine. Our filter
applications follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer for form,
fit, and function. Fram filters follow
internally targeted design guidelines to meet the functional requirements of a
given filter. Fram filters are tested
against SAE standards to ensure uniform product quality and performance.
Material construction will vary between filter
manufacturers. We believe Fram filters have a proven record for providing
reliability, superior quality, and engine
protection over the service life of the filter. It is not the policy of this
office to debate the opinions, statements,
or studies made by individuals, expressed in articles, or presented on websites.
We welcome the opportunity to enlighten
you on the subject of Fram filter construction.
A common misunderstanding among our customers concerns the end disks in the oil
filter. These disks hold the glue which
keeps the pleated media formed into a rigid circular tube. The glue-to-media
interface is also one of the sealing
surfaces keeping dirty and filtered oil from mixing. One common myth is that
only metal end disks can adequately seal
and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram
filters are criticized for having cardboard
end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive,
regardless of the material of the end disk.
What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the
thoroughness with which it can be applied to the
disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter
engineers are able to specify adhesives
with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk
(intuitively, it is easy to make a
strong glue bond with cardboard). Moreover, just as paper media itself is able
to withstand the hot oil environment, so
too is the end disk designed of fibers engineered to be strong and inert in hot
oil. The thickness and strength of the
adhesive also stiffens the end disk considerably.
How do Fram engineers test these end disks to know that they hold up on the job?
Not only do they perform hot oil
circulation tests on the filter element, but they also regularly cut open used
filters to examine how well they have
withstood the rigors of actual use on a vehicle. For over 38 years, Fram end
disks have stood up to hot oil and their
adhesives have sealed off the dirty oil.
The anti drain back valve system provides a robust and effective seal between
the tapping plate and the cartridge
assembly. The tapping plate has a coined area within .005 inches flat to seal
directly against the molded Nitrile anti
drain gasket. The cardboard end disk is loaded against the opposite end of the
anti drain gasket to create a seal. The
myth is that cardboard and metal seal against each other. In fact, the Nitrile
rubber anti drain gasket comes between
the two. The leaf spring retainer creates a load of 70 lbs. to seal the anti
drain back gasket to the end disk on one
side and the tapping plate on the other. Tests performed (by Fram engineers in
accordance with SAEHS806 procedures) on
Fram and competitive brand filters found that Fram filters consistently have the
lowest or one of the lowest leak rates
for the anti drain back valve system.
Another commonly-held belief is that the amount of filter paper (media) in a
filter, as measured by its surface area, is
the sole determinant of filter capacity. For example, people will cut open a
filter, stretch out the media, and measure
how many square inches it is. This theory holds that the more square inches of
media, the more capacity. Thus, the
proponents of this theory believe that through a simple visual inspection of one
aspect of a filter’s media, its length
and width, they can tell its relative ability to hold dirt. Plainly stated, they
believe that more paper surface means
more area to trap dirt. What they neglect in this analysis is that the depth of
the media also determines the surface
area available to trap dirt, and they neglect the complicated way that dirt
flows through the media and either becomes
lodged or doesn’t. In fact, not only depth but also the actual fiber structure
in the media play an important role in
determining how much dirt a filter can trap before it becomes clogged. For this
reason, filter experts do not rely on a
visual inspection of any one aspect of filter media to tell its performance.
They perform industry-accepted tests. For
capacity, that test is described by SAE HS806, written by the Society of
Automotive Engineers. Only by running oil
filters through this test procedure can their relative dirt-holding capacities
be determined.
When looking at test results and square inches of media used by various
manufacturers, it is clear that some filter
manufacturers adopt a strategy of using media with a structure, composition, and
depth that are less able to hold
quantities of dirt, but by packing more of that media into the filter housing
they bring the overall filter capacity up
to an acceptable level. At Fram, the filter engineers have always worked to
optimize the media’s ability to hold dirt.
Consequently, they can use less of the media in the housing but still achieve
high capacity. The only industry-accepted
way to measure the filter capacity is with testing performed to SAE HS806
specifications.
Fram bypass valves are made of glass filled Nylon. They have withstood hot oil
durability testing of 1,000,000 opening
cycles at 275 degrees (F). The valves are 100% inspected to assure they are
properly assembled and have no molding
defects that would impair their operation.
We believe Fram filters are clearly the best filters available. Fram is
committed to standing behind and endorsing it’s
products and filter recommendations listed in the current Fram application
catalogs. As part of this commitment, if you
should ever have reason to suspect or question the quality of a Fram filter, we
encourage you to contact the Fram
Product Evaluation Team toll free at 1-877-250-8361 for further assistance.
Thank you for choosing Fram filters.
Cordially,
Scott Jacobs
Catalog/Technical Service Representative
Catalog/Technical Services Department
On 06/17/07 Anonymous wrote:
You defend Fram with a passion, seems to me you work for them,
I too consider this to be an offhand comment. It’s the kind that makes readers tune out the rest of your reply.
Like ok4450, there are many regulars in this conference who can have different opinions, but they tend to be level headed and calm when providing input and are always open to listen and learn. That’s what makes this conference great.
Joe Mario
You defend Fram with a passion, seems to me you work for them
I’m another Fram defender who doesn’t work for Fram or any of the Alied Group companies.
The point all the Fram defenders are trying to make is…
SHOW US ONE ENGINE THAT’S FAILED DUE TO A FAULTY FRAM FILTER…JUST ONE…
If you can’t do that…then your argument is pointless.
In 40 years of car ownership I’ve never had had a problem with an oil filter, nor have I ever worn out and engine…even after 338,000 miles. And I’ve used Frams and Wally World filters as long as I can remember. While lab testing and forensics may show differences, in practice any filter changed on a regular schedule works great.
Having said that, there are those among us who prefer specific brands and feel uncomfortable using Fram. For them, I support using other filters. Peace of mind is priceless.
Whatever floats one’s boat and lets one sleep at night is all that counts.
No worth the time to read these threads on Fram, always the same
OP, if you’re still following this thread, then think of the debate in this manner.
Picture a long fence.
On one side you have backyard engineers cutting filters open with a hacksaw and using the naked eye to “detect” problems. A number of engineer groupies follow suit and post their “findings”.
On the other side of the fence you have mechanics, shops, car dealers, car manufacturers, filter makers, automotive engineers, and various testing/trade organizations such as ASE, SAE, etc, etc.
You decide which one has the most credibility.
Ask yourself this. If those “flimsy discs” are that bad then why have they survived the test of time; 38 years. Fram is NOT going to market a defective design for almost 4 decades.
This logic can also be carried over into another area; acetone in gasoline.
You have a guy, Louis Lapoint (another picnic table engineer) who has performed testing testing of acetone in gasoline and claims that it improves fuel mileage, which of course it does not. Nonetheless, there are a number of groupies who follow along and swear that it does, facts and logic be dxxxxxx.
(I especially like the one who uses his “specially modified carburetor” and acetone on his old Toyota Hi-Lux pickup and gets 130 mpg. Amazing.)
NO One said Fram had a defective design. What is consistently said is that their construction is not as sturdy as others on the market for the same price. that does not make it defective. Is a Kia built as well as a Lexus, most would say no. Same comparison yet both do the job of getting you to where you are going or in this case filling a void in the oil filter housing!!!
Given a choice I like the Lexus but again whatever floats your boat. As to engineers etc, on the internet anyone can claim to be whatever they want!
This Fram bashing is really sad. They have been making decent filters for almost 40 years and even their biggest detractors are unable to provide even one instance where an engine has failed due to them. I don’t really have a dog in the fight but I have used them as often as not as long as I can remember. My biggest problem has been that sometimes the gasket stays stuck to the engine and you have to peel it off. Maybe I didn’t lubricate it enough. As far as construction, would it really matter if they were made out of titanium with stainless steel end pieces on the filter media and NASA quality valves? We still have no reports of actual failures. I am still waiting for someone to post a true test of filtering ability based on objective standards rather than some backyard engineer’s findings on cutting open a few filters. I’m getting ready to change the oil in my truck and I think I’ll pick one up at Wally World to go with my Wally World oil (175,000 miles so far with no problems using this combo)
The inference is made repeatedly, by you and dozens of other people on the net, that Fram filters are of cheap, flimsy construction and do not filter as well as others, but the only lab equipment used by any of you in your scientific testing is a hacksaw and an eyeball.
This “flimsy design” has been around for 38 years and yet neither you or any of the other internet people can point to one lawsuit, failed or prematurely worn engine, or one car maker/organization/mechanic/etc. that will back you up.
How many Fram filters have been sold in the last 38 years? About a gazillion?
Point to one known example of a Fram damaged engine or any car maker, trade group, whatever that agrees with you and I will apologize.
Surely you can scrape just one example up.
You refer to Fram filter media endcaps as being cardboard. Cardboard infers flimsiness and Fram encaps are not flimsy. They are made of a tough material called vulcanized fiber otherwise known in the electrical insulation business as fishpaper. Fishpaper is heat and oil resistant among its properties. Although Fram endcaps have nothing to do with electrical insulation, the use of fishpaper in Fram oil filters has worked well for many years.
One specific issue I’m aware of is that for all but one of the Fram filter product lines, there are no Hyundai listings. If an oil shop carries Fram but not the right product line, they will not have the filter specifically designed for Hyundais. Since Hyundais and Hondas use the same filter mounting interface, they will sometimes use Honda filters. While both have a bypass valve for periods of high oil demand, the Honda doesn’t bypass until 14-18 psi, while Hyundai requires a filter that bypasses at 12-15 psi. So using the Honda filter may cause oil starvation in a Hyundai.
Note that I am not Fram bashing; merely pointing out that some shops have been using Fram filters on Hyundais when they are not the right filters for Hyundais. Hyundai even put a TSB out about the issue (although they didn’t call out the brand name). There have been a few people over on Hyundai forums that have had this problem though.