I don’t know about about you, but an extra $5 for a premium oil filter twice a year is not going to affect my standard of living. As I said before, I can’t even buy a martini in Chicago for less than $7. If cheap oil filters are your thing, go with it. There are more important things to discuss.
The internet is also the place where it has been “scientifically proven” that fuel saver tablets, the Tornado, an exhaust pipe diffuser, and acetone added to gasoline will vastly improve performance, emissions, and fuel mileage.
Why should anyone doubt any of that?
OP, continue to use Frams if you so desire. You will not have any problem with them.
You may have noticed that through all of this not one single example of a Fram caused problem or lawsuit has been cited on this board.
This is also true of the old board where this “bad Fram filter” question was frequently brought up.
A guy who runs the local auto machine shop/performance parts house here has no concern at all about running Fram filters on 20-30k dollar race car engines, so why should you worry.
Well, having cut many filters open Fram’s are indeed poorly constructed. However, if you change your oil every 3000 miles any "can: will work, in fact, IMO oil filters are pretty worthless, my own testing shows they make no differnece in the oil after 15,000 miles but anyway, going beyond 3000 miles you may wish something better built then a Fram for about the same price. Now, air filters, that is where the rubber meeets the road for engine life!
If you say they’re poorly constructed, and considering Fram sells countless millions per year, then there should be a relatively high number of filter failures and damaged engines. Correct?
If correct, then point to one verifiable example.
And what was their standard that they tested against. The question is does it filter properly to protect the engine. They do.
I don't know about the test, but there are many ways of testing a filter. Minimum size it filters, % of some standard mix of contaminate it filters, filter ability new, filter ability after some standard use and on an on. I suspect depending on you choice of test and test conditions you could end up with any filter looking good or bad.Go with K&N filters. They are better made and cna be aken off with a socket wrench.
One common myth is that
only metal end disks can adequately seal
and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram
filters are criticized for having cardboard
end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive,
regardless of the material of the end disk.
What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the
thoroughness with which it can be applied to the
disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter
engineers are able to specify adhesives
with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk
(intuitively, it is easy to make a
strong glue bond with cardboard).
Reference to above post omitted. Extracted from e-mail to OK4462 from Fram. See this thread:http://community.cartalk.com/posts/list/21/70410.page
This is certainly a topic that could use some controlled testing and objective and meaningful evaluations. Where is consumer Reports when you need them?
There is allot of opinion out there and some anecdotal evidence. The long term experiences that people have had are worth allot in this case since not much else is available. It is real world testing, albeit uncontrolled and with few data points.
Bobtheoilguy.com has alot of posts that dump on the lower end, PH series Fram products. One guy cut open about 10 new filters from various companies and posted the pictures. This is not scientific but it did look like the cheaper filters (Super Tech, Fram PH series, Value Craft, STP) used less filtering media. Also, the cheaper filters did not use a silicone rubber anti drain back valve or gasket. Does any of this matter under normal driving conditions and changing your oil every 3-4k miles? It does not sound like it so far from peoples experience.
One guy reported that in his Jeeps the oil pressure on his dash gage is lower when using a PH series Fram. OK, if it uses less filter material (less surface area)you could reason that the resistance may be greater.
I have used PH series Frams in the 80’s and 90’s with good results. At that time I believe they were made in USA. Since then the design has likely changed for cost savings and now I believe they are made in Mexico. There could be more quality issues now due to the factory being in a 3rd world country. I have seen this in many other products.
What some people have concluded is that the Frams are over priced for what you get. They are adaquate under normal conditions with 3k mile change intervals.
I now like to use a filter with a silicone rubber anti drain valve and gasket. It is makes it easier to remove and it is a bit more insurance since I go on 6-7k mile change intervals while using synthetic oil.
I once had a mechanic tell me that all of the blown engines he has worked on had Group 7 oil filters. Again this is anecdotal, but still enough for me to stay away from them. I have not seen them in stores for years now. Mayby that is why.
If any one has any bad experiences with Fram or someone else oil filter lets hear them. Or if anyone knows of a controlled study on this topic please share the results.
This is certainly a topic that could use some controlled testing and objective and meaningful evaluations. Where is consumer Reports when you need them?
They did test filters about 10 years ago…Conclusion…Fram was the BEST filter you could buy.
I once had a mechanic tell me that all of the blown engines he has worked on had Group 7 oil filters. Again this is anecdotal, but still enough for me to stay away from them. I have not seen them in stores for years now. Mayby that is why.
A mechanic is NOT an engineer. It may be his OPINION…but it I’d lay money that he didn’t have the engineering or physics to make a valid conclusion.
As been stated many many times…if Fram filters were so bad then show us ONE that failed…just ONE. Since Fram outsells it’s top 5 competitors COMBINED there should be THOUSANDS of engine failures each year due to Faulty Fram filters.
The general public is the best study there is.
Billions of Frams sold - and I’m STILL waitin’ for someone, anyone, anywhere, to name even one verifiable case of a Fram caused engine failure or problem.
That “inferior” design has also been around for something like 25-30 years, so what does that tell you?
Mike in NH,
Thanks for the info on the consumer reports article.
I just want to say I don’t have any vested interest in the outcome of this discussion other than people sharing and obtaining usefull info.
Your response just seems a bit overly defensive.
“A mechanic is NOT an engineer. It may be his OPINION…but it I’d lay money that he didn’t have the engineering or physics to make a valid conclusion”
I did say this information was anecdotal. At the time, it was enough info for me to not take a chance and use a Group 7 filter. Especially when there were so many other options available.
In full disclosure I will add I don’t work for any filter company or parent company. Nor do I work for any company that profits by selling a particular filter or any automotive product. Like I said, I have no vested interest in any particular out come. I am just a consumer who wants to get to the best info I can.
Thanks for responding.
When you’re #1 everyone wants to knock you off. There have been MANY false claims against Fram…mainly from their competitors.
I too am waiting for the Fram filter that destroyed an engine. Just ONE. Myself and many others here have put well over 300k miles on ONE vehicle that used Fram filters exclusively.
Fram is a 6 sigma company, that is only about 6 filters per million fail to meet specifications. The specifications are established by the engineers at the automotive manufacturers. Adding more filter media, extra metal or gold plating doesn’t make the filter better suited for the job. Most other filter manufacturers are not 6 sigma, which means that you are more likely to get a defective filter, and all the extra media, metal or gold plating will not help a defective filter do the job its supposed to do. I once got a very expensive filter that was full of metal shavings, I’m glad I spotted that before I put it on the engine, imagine the damage that would have done.
I went to an Italian Auto show earlier this summer. Every Fararri , Maserati, Lamborgini, etc had Fram filters on them. But so did the Fiats.
I think the key to understanding oil filters in typical consumer vehicles (as opposed to commercial vehicles) is that using a filter that filters better than the cheap Fram filters just doesn?t make much difference.
Why not?
- In a vehicle that receives regular (or even semi ? regular) maintenance, normal engine wear is seldom the cause of death for the vehicle.
- Most normal engine wear in consumer vehicles occurs during the first 20 minutes after start up - before the oil is fully warmed up. This wear occurs because the oil?s lubrication properties are inferior at room temperature (or colder) and doesn?t reach optimum lubrication until the oil nears full normal operating temperature of about 212 degrees F. The rate of wear during this first 20 minutes is roughly 20 times the rate of wear after the oil has warmed up. The filter will not make much difference in the wear pattern during warm up.
Even if my typical trip duration is an hour, about 90% of my engine wear will occur during the first 20 minutes of my trip (while my oil is warming up). How much do I want to spend to reduce the size and number of particles in the oil (by using a better oil filter) when 90% of the wear is unaffected. ?
The engineers that design engines, and specify the requirements for oil filters know this, and so they specify requirements that can be met with a relatively inexpensive filter. Fram understands these requirements, and have been producing low cost filters that reliably meet these specifications for many years.
The relationship between warm up wear and wear after warm up is different for over the road trucks (i.e. 18 wheelers). These trucks run for many hours or even days without being shut off. Warm up wear is much less important. Because of this, these engines have sophisticated oil filtering systems to prolong their life.
When I specify ?normal engine wear?, I am excluding situations where the cooling system fails and the engine overheats, or where other malfunctions cause the oil to become heavily contaminated with coolant or fuel. The oil filter does not play an important role in either overheating, or fuel or coolant contamination.
Here is a link to a discussion of the SAE paper by Dr Schneider that demonstrated this wear pattern.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=918907&an=0&page=0#Post918907
Thanks for the link. I scanned through the long threads written about the paper and got a good feel for what was presented and how various people feel about it.
Please correct me if I am wrong here, since I did not see the thechnical paper. It appears this was a piston wear study that looked at the effects of using different grades of oil. It did not look at filtration or the effects of filters. I did not see any mention to filtering.
If this is the case, there can be no conclusions made on filter designs, anti drain back valves or the effects of filtering.
From a scientific point of view it still leaves open questions such as.
If most wear happens durring the 1st 20 minutes of running, would a higher quality filter add value by reducing that wear ?
Does a fully functioning anti drain back valve add value?
People love to make assumptions (myself included). And they love to be right with their assumptions. However, untill there is some data being generated from a controlled study, who really knows?
The real world experiences people share are good information too. But it takes allot of them before they become really good information.
I do get the sence after reading all of this stuff we should put allot more attention on what oil we buy than the filter.
If most wear happens durring the 1st 20 minutes of running, would a higher quality filter add value by reducing that wear ?
How much INCREASE do you think you could possibly get??? Many of us here have put OVER 300k miles using Fram filters exclusively. So do you expect to reach 1 million miles using a preceived “Higher quality filter”??? Have you ever kept any of your cars OVER 300k miles???
Mike in NH,
I think you took my comment out of context. I was refering to the Oil and piston ring/cylinder wall wear study that an earlier poster was talking about. This is an oil filter thread and the study, although interestng did not appear to be about or relate to oil filters. If a similar took place and wanted to look at the effects of filtration those would be 2 questions it should address among many others. I hope you now understand.
Also, could you please disclose if you have some other relationship with FRAM other than just being a consumer. i.e you work for them or an affiliate. Perhaps you sell or advertise their stuff. This would only be fair to disclose if it were the case.
Your reactions are unusually strong, but thanks for sharing.
Here is a link to a graph of contaminent particle size versus engine life. The underlying data came from General Motors. Unfortunately for us, the data was for Detroit Diesel engines so I think we have to presume warm up wear was a much smaller part of the wear than we see in typical consumer use.
http://www.oilguard.com/HomepageExtendingEngineLife.htm
Indeed the SAE paper by Dr Schneider does not deal with filtration. However, it suggests (to me at least) that the change in lubrication properties of the oil with change in temperature will overshadow the effects of differences in contamination particle size and number. You are absolutely correct that there is no proof. However, in the absense of definitive proof, what are you going to believe?
If someone has information from a study that more directly addresses the issue, I would love to hear about it.
I believe the anti drainback valve is an important consideration for filters with a horizontal orientation. There is anecdotal evidence that nitrile rubber (the black ones) anti drainback valves often become leaky especially if they are left in service for more than 3000 miles. For this reason, I plan to use only filters with silicon (the red material) antidrainback valves for my vehicle that has a horizontal filter.