New Subaru radios weaker than old?

General Discussion
101

“woofers don’t beam”

Woofers BEAM a lot when crossovers are in appropriately high !!!

A15 inch woofer will beam frequencies whose wave length is less then 13 inches ( it’s approximate radiating surface area diameter) . That includes over 500 hz of material between 1k and 1.5 if the woofer is crossed over at 1.5k which the 604 is. That is more then 1/2 an octave of beamed frequencies !

Also…The measurements of the 604 speaker stipulate that it has a dispersion of 90% for all frequencies at the mouth of the horn. Though a horn is excellent at coupling the sound for high efficiency, it is very unfavorable to a 1" dome tweeter, which must work harder but easily disperses all frequencies down to slightly less then an inch, 180 degrees. So, the horn beams more too.

The 1.5 crossover may be excellent for a monitor but in a small living room, UN less you sit right in front of it, it is much worse then a comparable bookshelf with an 8 inch crossed over at 1.6 to 2 k with a 1" dome. This was a standard for the EPI 100 and original advent which modern speaks have gotten away from with their cheap drivers and high crossovers of 2.5k and above.

In addition, the piano, considered by many as the prime acoustic instrument for defining accuracy, radiates sound 360degrees from about 27 Hz to over 4kh. You can see how difficult it would be for a horn loaded speaker would be to reproduce a piano accurately in the normal (what ever that might be) reflecting living room. Brass Horns with a similar radiating pattern or a singing voice, perhaps…but all sound sources are not created equal and neither are their fundamental overtones. It’s in the math ! And, a simple sound pressure meter and frequency test cd, both cheap, will bear it out.

102

A piano goes well above 4kHz,well above our hearing range. You are only considering the primary frequencies but its the harmonics that give the piano its tone. I have never heard a speaker, any speaker reproduce a piano key accurately. I can’t put my finger in it but there is something different about a live piano, same for guitar.

103

@kieth
I agree…hence my comment " all sound sources are not created equal, including their fundamental overtones ". These harmonics give all sound it’s character, other wise, it sounds like the synthesizers of old and kids toys.
And, you CAN put your finger on it…it’s the pianos ability to radiate sound out 360 degrees, being miked within then recorded, and ultimately played through a speaker that can only radiate sound out 90 degrees. The sound created takes on the character of the room as well after just three feet from the speaker…too little distance for poor dispersion speakers or any speaker to do it full justice. So, even if the “perfect” recording is played back in a concert hall, if will never be quite the same.
But, regardless of the 20-20k spec on range of hearing, the vast majority of older people hear little over 15 k if that. We hear things differently over time with this loss, including pianos.

104

Dispersion is one of several issues - I think dynamic range is a bigger one with percussion sounds like the piano. The peak sound spikes are difficult to reproduce.

105

I agree @texases. But more importantly at times, reflections (influence dynamic range) affects the volume of many frequencies which affects tonal balance and dynamic range as well. All factors are important…but just to repeat myself, after three feet from a speaker, you hear more of the room ( interaction with the speaker) then you do directly from the speaker. That’s a fact, and the sooner this interaction is initiated, like a live performance, the more life like everything including dynamic range, can be part of the experience…we can’t separated these factors or say one is more important at the exclusion of another.
An anechoic chamber can dramatically affect ones perception of dynamic range where reflections are minimized.

106

A piano does not radiate uniformly 360°, I don’t know where you get that from. They radiate sound in 360°, but not uniformly just a speaker radiates sound 360°, but not uniformly. The shape of the piano has an effect on the directionality of the sound.

An upright piano radiates more uniformly in the horizontal plane than a concert grand (or any grand piano for that matter). A grand piano is better suited for the concert hall and the stage because it can project sound out to the audience where an upright is better in small rooms.

107

@keith
Please stop nit picking and inventing things I did not say just to make an unrelated point. FIRST, you second guess what I said about the FR of a piano without exhibiting a little reading comp and read my reference to overtones ( harmonics). Then you imply I said a piano radiates sound frequencies "uniformly " which I did not say in my two references… We all know that radiation pattern depends upon the the frequency wave lengthe vs the radiating diameter of the sound source and that speakers operate under more restriction to that end while the musical instrument is designed for a specific task.

If you want to make a criticism, fine, I have no problem with that, we all do it…Just don’t make something up along the way. I really don’t care for your little juvenile comment " I don’t know where you got that from " especially when it was YOUR comment. You referenced dispersion “uniformly” three times then attribute it to me and make a criticism. . Put my actual quote down which you seem to avoid, instead of making up your own and attributing it to me. And, you can quote me on that…

108

@keith - Since an upright piano’s soundboard faces the front and back, I don’t see how it could radiate uniformly in the horizontal plane. More sound comes out of the front and back than the sides.

It sounds like you are assuming that the grand piano has the lid up. If the lid is closed, most of the sound comes down from the bottom (half of the sound if the lid’s open). It is then reflected off the floor, where it radiates pretty uniformly. Whether there is a rug or not makes an incredible difference in the tone and volume, since different frequencies reflect and absorb differently.

Saying that an upright is better in small rooms is too much of a blanket statement to be taken seriously. I have played dozens and dozens of pianos in various sized rooms. I’ll take a grand anyday, and not just because the action is different. Most piano studios (small rooms) that I’ve seen have a pair of grand pianos, not uprights.

109

dagosa, the context of the way you stated that a piano radiates 360° and a speaker radiates 90° certainly implies that the piano radiates uniformly in all directions and speakers are highly directional. Both radiate 360° and neither do that uniformly, but granted a piano is more omni directional than a speaker. I’ll grant you that I was a bit nit picky though.

But do not confuse my reading comprehension with your writing ability. If you meant to be clear, you should have stated something like “fundamental frequencies”, not just “frequencies”. But I will admit that I don’t always say things the way I meant and I get misinterpreted now and then, but I don’t blame that on the reader, it just happens.

David, you have to understand how sound radiates from a string. Sound does not radiate off the ends of a string but perpendicular to the string. In an upright piano, the string is vertical, more or less, so the sound radiates horizontally. In a grand piano, the stings are horizontal so they will radiate in a doughnut shaped vertical pattern that is perpendicular to the length of the piano.

To help mellow the sound of a piano, all the strings are not parallel. I do not have a deep understanding of all this, just a basic intro type understanding, it was not my field of study but the criss cross pattern of the strings do something to help smooth out the harmonics and make the piano sound better.

Back to the upright being is small rooms, I meant things like bar rooms and living rooms, not a studio. I don’t think there has ever been an upright made that has the quality of sound that a grand makes, and in a studio, its all about sound absorption of the walls and mic placement.

110

Nothing like an audio discussion to generate lots of comments. Wonder what happened to the Subaru’s radio?

111

@teaxas
The sane man.
@Keith
That you for the polite reply.
My statement was…“the piano …radiates sound 360degrees from about 27 Hz to over 4kh. …but all sound sources are not created equal and neither are their fundamental overtones.”

Taken in context with these key statements, what is in error ? From what I know, a piano radiates nearly all of the frequencies from 27 hz to over 4 kh, 360 degrees. Whether it radiates it’s overtones (harmonics) much higher, I am not comfortable saying as much higher frequencies are more directional to begin with. I am very comfortable in saying that the speaker I was referring to in answering Mike’s post, can’t.

Though I made a CYA statement about overtones which includes I believe harmonics, it was irrelevant to me as the ORIGINAL discussion evolved around Mike’s 15 inch woofer which he said “Woofers don’t beam…at least not much…”.
Everything from 1k to 1,5 and beyond, nearly will NOT be radiated 360 degrees, and I suspect, MUCH less then that. Sound in this area will ONLY be heard as a reflection. His is typical of speakers in their inability to radiate the sound a piano can, a full 360 degrees.

112

I was just gonna make a comment about how we have 10 pages of people talking about everything audio BUT the Subaru’s radio.

113

Do you think we could actually come up with ten pages about a Subaru radio ? That was taken care of pages ago. Can’t speak for everyone else, but like me maybe we’re just making things up as we go along, waiting for someone to catch us. We learned that technique from a Mr. Robert Gift.

114

dagosa, I apologize for being too nit picky. I did not get into your discussion about what design is best for speaker because, well, I have my speakers and I am satisfied with them. Lets face it, no speaker accurately reproduces the original sound. The distortion starts at the microphone and once introduced, it cannot be removed.

The distortion starts with the diaphragm in the mic. The higher frequencies are hitting a diaphragm that is already moving because of the lower frequencies, so a Doppler shift is introduced right at the start. Then the sounds are run through some type of audio board or mixer where they are further manipulated to satisfy the artist or the sound engineer. so with all that, how do you even define what is accurate?

On top of that, if you are sitting in the concert hall or studio where the recording is being made, do you hear the exact same sounds that the microphone hears if your ears are not in the exact same place as the mics? In a concert hall, does everyone hear the exact same sounds?

It does seem that speakers certainly respond to their environment. I bought my first set of speakers while stationed in Japan back in the 70’s. They are Kenwood 777A 4 way, 6 speakers Acoustic suspension with 15" woofers, I have moved many times since buying those and they definitely sound better in some places than others. I do try to optimize their location in any room that I put them in and they still sound pretty good. I think the crossover for the woofers should be lower though, somewhere around 200Hz and let the 2-5" midranges handle everything up from there to about 4k, but then I didn’t design them.

Now if I could just get a good stereo receiver for them. I had a Kenwood receiver that worked really well, but now due to a lightening strike, I have a Technics that has a 40Hz anti rumble filter that I can’t switch out so I can’t hear that 32 Hz organ tone in Also Sprach Zarathrustra anymore.

And yeah, this discussion got way off track, but the most interesting discussions usually do. Its like those overtones, it adds richness to the site.

115
Though a horn is excellent at coupling the sound for high efficiency, it is very unfavorable to a 1" dome tweeter

Who uses a dome tweeter for a horn?? Compression driver (either 1.4" or 1" are the most common size for compression driver.

You can see how difficult it would be for a horn loaded speaker would be to reproduce a piano accurately in the normal (what ever that might be) reflecting living room

I hate to burst your bubble…but the reason the 604 is so popular is because it produces very accurate sound…and a Piano sounds like a Piano with the 604’s more then any other speaker I ever heard…and there are many sound engineers who’ll agree with me. I can only assume you’ve never really heard good horn loaded speakers like the 604 or A7. Just do a google search and you’ll find many people who rave about the 604’s piano sound reproduction.

While beaming will ALWAYS occur no matter what speakers or design you use…Newer horn designs haven’t eliminated beaming…but have drastically widened the sweet spot. I have heard several horn speakers (mainly from JBL and Jenson) that have a sweet spot of only a few feet when 10’ away from the speakers. With constant directivity speakers or Mantaray speakers drastically widen that sweet spot.

116
Sound in this area will ONLY be heard as a reflection.

So you’re saying that you’ll won’t hear those frequencies in a movie theater?? Good movie theaters won’t have much reflection sound. the side walls, back walls and even the ceiling has a lot of sound absorbing material absorb any reflection to eliminate reflection.

117

Let me take your points one at a time. @MikeInNH
"who uses a dome for a horn tweeter ? " not what I said…l
I am just comparing the dispersion characteristics of a horn, yours which the specs claim has a 90degree dispersion at the mouth, and a common 1 inch dome on a different speaker, not in a horn, which will disperse up to 180degrees for some frequencies whose wave length is smaller then it’s diameter of one inch. That’s all. Don’t think we read the same mail on that one.

Your second point…given the different acoustics of different rooms, your speakers can sound accurate reproducing a piano or not. It’s really that simple. If you don’t agree, we never will. Where we will never agree is that, after three feet, you hear more of the room then you do the speaker. The total sound quality needs, IMO, to be judged with that in mind and how well the speaker interacts with the room, would be important.

“So you are saying you won’t hear those frequencies in a movie theater”…that is exactly right. If the sound wave isn’t radiateded directly to you, you may hear it as a reflection. If that frequency is absorbed, you won’t hear it. But that’s not the total sound. We are not talking about all sound. We obviously look at sound differently. For you it appears to be all or nothing, correct me…l But. Yes, if a sound frequency that is not radiated directly to you and is not reflected, how else can you hear it ? When I perform on stage, we need adaquate monitor speakers because we can hear very little of the total sound radiated outward on stage, even though the volume projected to the audience is extremely high and full band. It seems that the volume of our monitor speakers which is very directional, so we need several as we move, is more important then the house speakers for the performer. It actually looks a little funny for us…the crowd is jumping and clapping in time with the music that we can barely hear…we can even have very quiet conversations with one another while we perform as the audience is swallowed up in the music. Just don’t let them see your lips move !!! It’s a great theater that can do that for you.

Your 604s are as dependent on their environment as any other speaker. And, to say they will perform well in environments that other speakers are better suited for, ain’t true, and we will just have to disagree…if you get a bunch of people to agree that 604 s are excellent speakers, and I don’t doubt that, it’s most often because they are all in a similar working environment. And theater speakers just don’t have the same environment requirements as living room speakers. To equate the two will always generate disagreement, as it has between you and I.
And again…expecting a good speaker to sound well in a bad room is like asking a sports car to handle well on ice…

Hey, how about that Ortiz,. He could be out for a year…Bradley for DH !

118

@keith
Like to hear about others experiences. I agree. There are so many variables and links in the chain while sound is a totally personal experience. But, it makes for great, “I have way too much time on my hands” debates.

I will even throw in…what we see can some times affect how we hear sounds…our moods, obviously whether we have a cold, but most importantly, how old we are.
I lost an opportunity to be a pilot, I know, had to have something to do with working at the paper mill summers while going to school. The paper machines made so much noise, I discovered while taking a physical for OCS, I had lost my hearing for some critical frequencies.

After that experience, much later, while shaperoning dances as a teacher, I would take a sound pressure meter along with a print out discribing affects of loud noises on hearing to confront bands and DJs. It worked…just saying, your playing too loudly wasn’t as effective as showing them the math.

I agree with the frequency preferences you mentioned for crossovers. I remember the old Kenwoods. Shortly after that, AR came out with the model 9 something or other that was an early attempt at stacking multiple drivers into a tower configuration for home speakers. This helped extend frequency dispersion. Your Kenwoods would have been 8feet tall if they had done it…

119
.l But. Yes, if a sound frequency that is not radiated directly to you and is not reflected, how else can you hear it ?

But who says it’s NOT radiated directly to you. Theaters do a very very good jog at radiating the sound to you. The reason they to absorb reflecting sound is because it’s very hard to predict and control…especially when the theater is filled (or not filled). Have you ever looked that the a true THX theater design???

I have never said that reflecting sound doesn’t exist. What I said is that it’s difficult to predict and control. Bose takes the approach of using the reflecting sound…others try to minimize it.

Your 604s are as dependent on their environment as any other speaker.

Well I wouldn’t compare the 604’s to Bose. Bose are far far far more room dependent then MOST speakers. The whole approach at horn speaker design is to control the direction of the sound so the listener has an enjoyable experience. The Bose approach it so use the reflecting sound as part of the listening experience. There are a LOT of sound engineers who’ll disagree with that approach saying that you can’t effectively control the reflecting sound. And my experience with Bose…I agree with that assessment. They are so room dependent that they sound EXCELLENT in some rooms…they sound like cheap $10 WallMart speakers in another room.

120

Mike, agree with everything you say…
And I would not try to compare Bose to 604s and I haven’t even mentioned them in most of my posts…except to say they both are made by companies that have been very successful. My contention has always been that Bose is not succesful just because they can convince enough idiots to buy them. I have felt that speakers are as much instruments in the same vain as a musical instrument. They are designed to produce pleasing sounds that remind people of their hearing experiences. Just like a movie takes liberties with the facts to make a more profitable film, so do speaker manufacturers, especially Bose. That one speaker earns their bread on their devotion to total accuracy, is no guarantee they will be profitable. That they can service more of the public by entertaining them, is. The sound speakers generate is just part of an illusion. The more entertaining that illusion, the more you can sell.

Above all, and here is where I may have to disagree; absolute accuracy is neither sought nor desired by either the speaker maker or the listener in non critical situations. This is important if long term listening is desired which translate into long term profit by the speaker maker…namely Bose.

I feel Bose takes a similar approach in their design goals as most if not all professional speaker manufacturers do…long term listening and a pleasant acceptable sound to the majority of people and most people aren’t 't " audiophiles".