I think db4690 is dead on correct with all points.
A friend of mine has been in the trans business over 40 years; always as an independent.
He does the actual rebuilds and internal repairs but has a couple of guys working for him who do the transmission R & R work along with basic services such as fluid and filter changes, external seals, and so on.
He stays swamped with late model work of all makes and none of which ever goes to a dealer. Lack of drain plugs, lack of dipsticks, and so on is not even a bump in the roadway as to serviceability. It may deter the DIY oil change in the driveway guy but those guys arenât going to the dealer anyway. Some of the local dealers even send their problem child transmissions to him.
If thereâs engineering logic applied then explain to me why Subaru put a nylon governor drive gear in their early automatics; which led to the gear stripping and a complete transmission disassembly.
My opinion is that an engineer figured on steel and a bean counter figured on injection molded nylon because it was much cheaper and would hold up long enough to survive the warranty period.
dagosa , I wasnât talking about windows that only went down partway, I was talking about the full windows in the rear doors of 4 door sedans that were fixed- no crank or motor or regulator, like the 3rd row side windows in station wagons.
I missed the discussion on Toyota drain plugs, must be on page 10. The OP was working on a 1991 Buick.
I havenât found any Toyota products without transmission drain plugs yet, the newest transmission that I had to drain was a 2013 ES350 transmission core for shipping.
The drain plug is there for convenience, it allows you to drain the fluid before removing the pan. It makes adjusting the fluid level easier if someone has over filled the transmission and it makes it easier to drain a core before shipping.
I worked on Chrysler products for 20 years, no transmission drain plugs. It may have discouraged owners from servicing their own transmissions, removing the pan is messy but anyone in the field should be accustom to removing pans with no drain plugs.
During training, the lack of a differential drain plug came up. The instructor stated that the engineers wanted the differential cover removed, the gears inspected and the magnet cleaned. That answer should justify the lack of drain plugs. However when a team of engineers submit designs for a new assembly the accountants will return it and tell the engineers we need the cut costs by $50 per unit. That is where the drain plug went.
"For the 1978 model year, the Malibu name, which had been the bestselling badge in the lineup, replaced the Chevelle name. This was Chevroletâs second downsized nameplate, following the lead of the 1977 Chevrolet Caprice. The new, more efficient platform was over a foot shorter and had shed 500 to 1,000 pounds (230 to 450 kg) compared to previous versions, yet offered increased trunk space, leg room, and head room.[1] Only two trim levels were offered - Malibu and Malibu Classic. The Malibu Classic Landau series had a two-tone paint job on the upper and lower body sections, and a vinyl top.
Three bodystyles were produced (station wagon, sedan, and coupe), and the design was also used as the basis for the El Camino pickup truck with its own chassis. The sedan initially had a conservative six-window notchback roofline. This was in contrast to the unusual fastback rooflines adopted by Oldsmobile and Buick divisions which would later revert a more formal pillar style. To reduce cost, the windows in the rear doors of four-door sedans were fixed, while the wagons had small moveable vents. No doubt this design contributed to the number of factory air conditioning units sold with the cars, to the benefit of General Motors and Chevrolet dealers."
Again my good man, you conflate what happened in the past when OP is discussing what is a trend now and for different reasons. Also, OPs opinion is slanted toward a particular brand of car, and not all. Itâs like debating why car makers include their cheapest bias ply tires on new cars when it is not happening today. Car makers obviously use the least expensive tires they could subcontract for, but they are NOT going to put something on today that will compromise sales. You are also talking about non maintenance items. Even your discussion of the fixed window in the back backs up my assertion of contributing to more models being sold with air conditioning. In this day and age, decisions like this by companies that want to survive take more things into account then just saving moneyâŠfor that immediate part. And what ultimately happened to GM over time when they pulled this crap ? They lost market share. All cars are engineered better today. GM trucks have for many years had rear differentials without drain plugs. If you looked at how the were constructed, with a stamped steel plate, you can see why. It would have never survived a collision with a rock. Toyota has a shielded drain plug but the differential housing is much more substantial and the plug is shielded because of their target market. The entire under carriage is much more sturdy for use off road. The OLD arguments arenât the same. 1978. ?. Besides, there are reasons why a Toyota transmission might have a drain plug and a GM might notâŠToyota might want more ease of impatience to ensure longer life. They have different design goals.
If a car maker eliminates the drain plugs and replaces threaded screws with plastic buttons the savings can be used to install more cup holders and wifi. And the initial buyer wonât be looking for drain plugs, etc. He/she will be impressed with the cup holders and wifi though.
The car makers are not making their own pans. They can be contracted to an Asian plant for little compared to yesteryear. In this day and age, stipulating one with a plug and one with out could very well, and probably does, save NOTHING. It might add 5 minutes of overtime to a laborer who does not get paid for the over time. The important thing for a contractor, is to get the order to begin with. Having a plug in a pan is insignificant and the bigger the order, the more likely it is less significant. This isnât 1978âŠor â1984â for that matter. Unless you can show me a parts list price break down that is used for automakers and a difference in price, I wonât believe it. And, like my good Cartalk buddy @db4690â , even if I do see the invoice, I still wonât (re. Discussion on % of pick ups sold with 4wd) They do business much differently then you or I and other retail buyers.
@Rodknox I rest my case. That is my contention from the beginning. Successful companies donât cut cost on maintenance items like drain plugs just for the savings of that item without understanding itâs effects that can do more harm then good. GM IMHO, doesnât do this anymore, nor does Ford or Toyota on items as critical as transmission drain plugs. What happened in 1978 till GM collapsed has no bearing on what they do now nor what Ford or Toyota doesâŠother items, sure. Drain plugs, no. If they eliminate them, which by the way, Toyota has seen fit not to do in most models that I know of, they do for a reason other then just cutting the cost of the plug. Thanks for the info. Just building a crappy car with hard to maintain items without having a plan behind it does not work today.
At some expense, Toyota ADDED drain hole plugs on some of their models around the door drains. Why ? They are 4 wd models and donât want excessive moisture to intrude into the doors during off roading which is an ancillary concern of their customers. I feel they should to be removed and replaced at regular intervals to be most effective if you want to keep the vehicle for a really long time. Why go through that much trouble with a bunch of little door drain plugs and then not consider the effect of a drain plug in a transmission. I am sure that these Twelve plugs, in their crew cabs cost more then one drain plug in a transmission pan, which I still feel costs little or nothing and like successful car makers, you just add the cost on the package price if it will satisfy your customer profile. Some guys are giving bean counters too little credit for also having concern for a cars long term clientele performance expectations.
I seem to recall that information you posted did NOT exactly separate body on frame pickups from the other vehicles that also are technically trucks. Some unibody vehicles are even considered trucks.
So therefore, Iâm still not convinced
The ONLY numbers Iâm interested in are the percentage of body on frame pickups sold that are 4x4
I am not interested in the percentage of unibody SUVs and body and frame vans, etc., which are 4x4
As long as theyâre all grouped together, itâs no help to me
Because there is only the unibody Ridgeline that is sold as a mid size pick up truck with unibody and the framed Tacoma sells more pickup trucks then nearly the rest of the field combinedâŠand ALL of the full size pickup trucks have frames with rwd as an optional drive train, me thinks you can conclude that the vast majority of âPickup trucksâ have frames. Also, in the van category, when ever it has fwd as an option, itâs almost exclusively unibody for vans and rwd as an optional drive train would for Large vans with frames, Fords, Checy, GMC and Nissan.
Personally, I donât know why having a frame or not is Germaine to being a truck but rwd and fwd as alternate drive trains pretty much takes into account 99% of all âtrucksâ sold and they tell you as alternate drive trains if the pick up truck with an open bed has a frame. If itâs closed, itâs a van or SUV and SUVs have the same relationship. Fwd option goes with unibody, rwd goes with ladder frame for nearly all in each category with no statistically important exception.
It is interesting to note, the only âtruckâ with the potential option of being fwd as itâs drive train is AWD and a Pilot/Accord/Odessey platformâŠstill the Ridgeline doesnât come in fwd. they obviously donât think it would sell.
Can you think of another mass produced open pick up without a ladder frame (it has a unibody) other then a Ridgeline ? I hear Jeep may have a pick up next year. It will be interesting to see itâs drive train and frame configuration. So, easily, more then half of all pick up trucks sold now are in 4 wd .
@db4690â
Itâs time for a redesign if it stays to be competitive. I feel the biggest advantage of a framed truck is the ability to put multiple bodies and drive trains and packages imbedded in one ladder frame. If you want a different body style with a unibody, everything has be retooled.
So, for example, Toyota sells a basic frame and puts three different body styles access cab, crew short and long bed with either two or four wheel drive and two motors with multiple packages, tow, off road etc,. The Ridgeline is committed to one body style because of the unibody limitations, one motor and drive train and limited packages. Any other unibody truck would be similarly encumbered. Just look at all the pervious attempts; just one model.
I considered a Tacoma vs Ridgeline recently but went with a Tacoma because of the packages and body style Honda could not offer.
In this day and age, stipulating one with a plug and one with out could very well, and probably does, save NOTHING.
Câmon now, when was the last time you had a fabricated part like this quoted? We do sheet metal parts with various post fabrication operations like this EVERY SINGLE DAY. I can tell you without any uncertainty or doubt, that every single operation you do to the part has a cost associated with it. Stamping a pan is considered one âoperationâ although it may take multiple dies to accomplish the final shape. Having someone weld a bung onto the pan is (as someone already mentioned) more expensive than the stamping operation. While fabrication costs are generally lower in LCCs, they are not freeâŠ
We just did an injection molded housing where the mechanical guys had included threaded inserts for mounting of the final unit. The labor just to load the molding tool with the inserts for each housing TRIPLED the part costâŠ
Agreed with TwinTurbo. If one takes a simple part and a single hole is stamped in it thereâs a cost involved in stamping that hole even if robotically done to the tune of 200 pieces per minute.
There will be bean counters working on eliminating that hole or getting the robot to spit out 210 pieces per minute; or both.
Regarding drain plugs, thereâs a labor cost (even if the plugs are farmed out to another manufacturer and which is quite likely) to obtaining, stocking, and distributing those plugs on the assembly line.
So, here is an oil panâŠfor less then $50 and it simply saysâŠplug included where required. Doesnât seem to have any influence on price. These items may not be made in America and the price with or without a plug is incidental to other more important factors.
Here are after market transmission pans for less then $30 and some more.
some with and some without and no mention of specific price difference based on that factor.
Compare the Cobalt w/o with the Chevy 1500 truck pan which appears with a plug. Itâs dramatically larger and the difference in price is $2âŠ33 vs 35 rounded off (up, step) . These things are priced by how they are made but by supply and demand as well and having or not having plugs is nearly incidental between a contractor and car maker when a decision is made for other reasons. I am not saying they are not out to save moneyâŠbut I repeat for the umpteeth timeâŠitâs not some thing in this day and age where the csot savings is anywhere near as import as other factors. Retail prices would easily reflect these differences otherwise.
(re. Discussion on % of pick ups sold with 4wd) They do business much differently then you or I and other retail buyers.