But @dagosa, the car manufacturer doesn’t get the labor $$$…the dealerships do. Remember also that individual car parts are often aftermarket, not manufacturer genuine…or the parts are delivered direct from a supplier.
Are you saying the profit on parts alone is enough to influence serviceability? Or are you saying it’s a bone the manufacturer tosses to the dealers? I don’t see how freezing out amateurs for professional mechanics really impacts the bottom line of GM…I DO see how it impacts the bottom line of “Joe Blow’s Buick/Chevrolet/GMC in downtown Smalltown, USA”
Repair/maintenance of a patented vehicle is exempt from patent protection, so you can’t patent all the “thingamabobs and doohickeys.”
Sorry to disagree, but the manufacturer is responsible for labor costs for all cars under warranty. My truck has a two year (free, I am not naive to think it really is) service from Toyota manufacturer which is paid to the dealer as they do my service. It is not done as an immediate sales pitch to draw customers alone. They found that guaranteeing service cuts down on the warranty repairs they have to pay for the first three bumper to bumper years, gets the customer in the habit of going to the dealer and minimizes their expense for the extended 6 year 60 k warranty. It’s all tied together and having or not having drain plugs is an integral part f their profit making, way beyond the actual cost of individual drain plugs. The dealer now has to do services for you by eliminating drain plugs on some transmissions under warranty. Remember too, in their minds with complicated components, they feel the customer ultimately ends up with a more reliable car…hmmmm. That takes a little time to sink in but…it’s still a reason beyond saving pennies.
They don’t do it by penny pinching without a long term out look. Removing drain plugs on components by Toyota has to be done very carefully on their trucks for example, because their target market which expects them, is different from other cars, as are they all. Profit making is not a matter of just pinching pennies and I give Ford or GM the same credit I give Toyota. You may choose one switch over another to save pennies but drain plugs are enough of an influence on service, it is done with care. OEM Parts are a huge profit maker ( or saver) for manufacturers and their suppliers and service is for both the dealer and manufacturer who pays for all warranty work. Service and maintenance, as the majority of new car buyers have their cars serviced by the dealer, IS an integral part of all profit making and control over who will maintain a transmission and under what circumstances is a much bigger factor then just saving money on a drain plug. Whether you include drain plugs helps implement those decisions.
Yes, some brainiac engineer could rationalize that an engine oil drain plug isn’t needed, because oil change intervals are already 15K in some situations
They could rationalize that before those 15K are reached, all you need do is top off
And since 15K might take a year or two to reach, it’ll take that long before you’re hit with a VERY expensive oil change, because of the labor involved to remove the pan
If and when that day arrives, I’ll do some homework, as to whether there is a drain plug kit or an aftermarket pan with a plug available
YOU MAY WANT TO RECONSIDER FLAGGING JOE AS A TROLL
I myself have sometimes changed what I flagged somebody, based on the input of the other regulars
If I did flag meany, I did it by mistake with my pudgy little fingers on my ipad. I see it is now gone…it was not my intent. I agree with all you have to say about removing oil pan plugs and though you may not agree that it is related to the debate, I, unfortunately do.
The other reason for our disagreement may be the way we are looking at cars. Car makers are not concerned with maintenance beyond the warranty period and how to minimize it then and retain control over it later. They really have less concern for an independents inconvenience on an older car then they do maximizing their profits. Anything they can do to make it tougher for you do maintenance on a car and refer it to a dealer…,who uses OEM parts, again, helps them. Are they smart enough ? Who knows. I give everyone credit for being smarter then I.
Whoa…step away to watch a TV show and you miss out on all the drama! Had no idea I got flagged; goodness knows I’ve had “pudgy finger syndrome” in the past, so no offense taken.
dag, I meant that the manufacturer doesn’t PROFIT on the labor. That’s the lion’s share of most repair/maintenance; if GM designs their cars to discourage DIY, all they stand to gain is a few extra parts sold to the dealer, IF the owner goes to the dealer to get the ATF serviced.
I just don’t see how this makes the manufacturer mucho dinero. I see, much more clearly, how it makes the dealers happy, though.
You will never convince me that the elimination of drain plugs, torque converter drain plugs and their access plates, grease fittings, etc. were driven by the need for proper servicing procedures rather than just saving the manufacturer money. Eliminating the vent windows and ventilation systems was brilliant, it saved GM a ton of money (they started it) and it forced people to buy a/c.
Do you think that when GM sold four door cars with back door windows that didn’t roll down, it was because of engineering principles ? If you do, I want to talk to you about this bridge I don’t need.
I know everyone wants to make things black and white so they can find simple reasons for what a car maker does, but things like not having windows roll all the way down in cars with rear doors that aren’t rectangle because they need to accommodate rear wheel well and literally have no room, is an obvious answer in front of ones eyes. It’s a mechanism they then had to use by necessity in one car and choose to duplicate in others that have rectangular doors for cost purposes. In vans for example, it sure doesn’t bother a mother whose children sit in the back that also has child safety locks then sell both ideas as safety measures then group them all together as a “star” safety package…merchandizing and long term profit making like drain plugs. …all part of a design package.
Aerodynamics is a big driving force for increased use of air, lack of vent windows and generally having a more filtered environment that yielded a quieter, more isolated interior. Vent windows were notorious for a source of noise and air leaks. There is you r bridge. To think a maker does things for one reason and one reason only for immediate profit is why car companies failed in the past and others still do today. They consider longer term affects like all the successful ones do. Your reasons aren’t theirs. So, Ford makes trucks in their biggest profit making line out of aluminum and at the same time drops drain plugs. One was done to save immediate pennies and one was done to spend hundreds on each car with no reason in mind ? I guess that weight savings had a little to do with it. If we ask them, they will actually tell you the real reasons. It’s costing them a lot of immediate profit they have somehow determined To be in their long term best interest. You don’t think drain plugs on cars gets the same consideration ?
A service item like a drain plug is specifically eliminated to control whom, when and how service is to be performed. It’s a long term decision. If you don’t think there is a more valid reason for their elimination in their eyes then just saving on pans, I have a bridge too to sell.
Could there have been any reason other than cutting costs with no regard for maintenance when the drain petcocks were eliminated from radiators on many models in the early 70s?
Most oil pans of the stamped steel type have a piece of thicker metal welded into the area where the drain plug is. This thick section is drilled and tapped to hold the drain plug. I can see this costing more to make and involving more steps than just stamping the pan out and putting it on. Sure, I may not like it but it saves a few cents over a production of thousands of cars which really adds up. I know some car makes claim lifetime transmission fluid and am pretty sure Toyota has gone that route. I would at least hope they are using some type of synthetic fluid in these.
I always get a chuckle out of the people that believe the engineers have any say in it at all. The only conclusion I can come to is most of those people have never worked in development engineering for a consumer product. If you did, you’d know that very few, and I mean a select handful, of companies are engineering driven anymore. The finance, marketing and sales organizations are the ones driving the bus. They specify the list of CTQs, target price (when coupled with expected GM sets the product cost) and many other aspects that set the stage for what you end up with in a car.
Bear in mind that the subject matter is the realm of mechanical engineers. These people live and breathe automotive design. I’d be willing to bet the vast majority of them are far more enthusiastic about cars and working on them than most of the people on this board. Having worked in the environment for many decades, I can tell you one of the hardest things is to keep engineers grounded. They want to include every doodad and gadget you can imagine. The last thing they want to do is eliminate a drain plug. The reason you have the dent in the pan is probably because some engineer was told to eliminate the drain plug. Well, the tooling to stamp the pan only has an incremental charge to add that feature and so scr@w those guys, we’re including the feature in the event they come to their senses. If nothing else, the DIY person can add one more easily down the road…
The program managers and project leads pass those dictates down from on high. Shi…, er, stuff rolls downhill and the engineer is at the bottom…standing in a ditch.
Bob Lutz, love him or hate him, wrote a book about this very issue with the short title of “Car Guys vs Bean Counters”…
It’s not only the omission of drain plugs or what have you. Cost cutting also means replacing a screw with a rivet, a metal clip with a plastic push pin, etc along with chipping away at assembly times.
An interesting note about assembly times in regards to the OK City GM assembly plant closed not many years ago. Politicians were in disbelief when this happened and apparently none of them read the business section of the Daily Oklahoman newspaper a year before the closing was announced.
An article referred to the average SUV as taking about 20-21 hours of assembly line time at Ford and Chrysler plants. The OKC plant was burning through about 27-28 hours per SUV. Given the cost of each of those assembly hours a blind man should have been able to see that shutdown coming.
The bean counters look at it as drain plug personified.
Just for a moment, pretend that you as a manufacture who knew that after the 60 k mile when owners may choose where they wanted it serviced, and you required a filter change with the a transmission fluid for maximum maintenance benefit, would you think about removing the drain plug to encourage that ? Of course you would.
You guys are on this cost cutting binge where you are IMO, mistaking substituting one item for another to reduce cost to eliminating an item that has a direct bearing on service.
“A service item like a drain plug is specifically eliminated to control whom, when and how service is to be performed. It’s a long term decision”
I respectfully disagree with that
Here is why
There have often been times when I work on identical GM vehicles back to back, at work. Same model year, same engine, transmission, trim line, every single little thing
One has a drain plug, and the next does not
How does your logic account for that . . . ?!
I’m sorry, but for me, your arguments don’t hold water
The absence of a drain plug does not mean that it has to go to the dealer for service. And even if the customer decides to not service the trans themselves, odds are they’re not going to take it to the dealer, either. Because, by the time they decide to service the trans, the vehicle is going to be several years old. And the guy probably stopped going to the dealer by then, anyways. That customer that decides to not service it themselves will probably bring it to an independent shop or jiffy lube
The absence of a drain plug merely makes it harder for the owner to service the trans themselves. It does not control who actually does service it, in the end
Another grand General Motors’ cost cutting transmission faux pas was the 200THM that was designed for use on 4 cylinder cars but installed wherever it was convenient including V8s. GM deserved the trashing that Ross Perot gave them.
There are two different discussions going on. One having to do with an inept GM cutting drain plugs YEARS AGO and one with Toyota now. OP was asking about the trend NOW. I suppose you are now saying that Toyota has done away with dipsticks on recent trans to save money on dipsticks with no concern for anything else. And, if in the future, Toyota does the same to motor oil, it will be with the sole intent of saving money on motor oil drain plugs. It has nothing to do with advance lubricants, it has nothing to do with service by dealers and they just don’t care how difficult it makes service for the dealers. Toyota has no plan and just haphazardly cuts pieces where ever they can to save money, totally inconsiderate of it’s affect on service and reliability. Amazing !
