Logic of AT Pans with No Drain Plug

Maintenance/Repairs
101

you silly! hello again!

102

Dorman’s quality is at least average. I don’t think they actually produce much of what they sell under the HELP label or even the Dorman label. The intake manifolds, coolant reservoirs, etc., that I have installed have never resulted in a customer returning with a failure. For many such parts there is no other readily abailable source. Failures due to inexperienced DIYers might give the Dorman product line a bad image.

103

@db4690‌
Have seen some pretty crappy OEM pans. They aren’t structural, usually. The important part is they mate well to the rest of the motor. How “good” to they have to be ? Do you really think a relatively benign part like a pan has to be of that high quality. Heck, car makers put more thought and money into plastic motor covers and valve covers the owner can actually see. It’s probably on item you can successfully cheap out.

104

That Dorman Neon pan is discounted because the newest car it fits is 10 years old and the part about the drain plug being included if necessary just means that if your car came with a drain plug they give you a new one, you don’t have to reuse your old one. They are not implying that some Neons came without a drain plug.

105

Sure
we can’t assign our own meaning. It says what it says. The fact is. Whether it came with a plug or not, there was no difference in price. It says just that
"when required " Obviously, some Neons may not have had plugs. Look at all the other pan references. Plugs are indicated the same way. They have no influence on cost and if some pans are stipulated or threaded for plugs, they are include and not one cent is added to the price. Now, transmission pans are based on size and not inclusion of plugs. Trucks do come with plugs.

106

So, here is an oil pan
for less then $50 and it simply says
plug included where required. Doesn’t seem to have any influence on price. These items may not be made in America and the price with or without a plug is incidental to other more important factors.

I see the problem. You are comparing prices, I’m talking costs. The end user price, especially for aftermarket parts, has very little bearing on actual cost, especially compared to manufacturer’s costs for OEM parts.

107

Most of the products sold at retail have more invested in packaging, handling and freight than in the product itself. The Toyota plant near me produces 160,000 Corollas annually. If a weekly delivery of 3,000 pans arrives can we agree that the per piece price would be less than $1? But the stamping plant might blister pack a few hundred each week for sale into the after market and the packaging and handling would be significant.

108

If a weekly delivery of 3,000 pans arrives can we agree that the per piece price would be less than $1?

No, I disagree that a pan is less than $1 even in qty 3000. My experience would say otherwise.

Regardless, you have illustrated my point, it’s not possible to use consumer prices to support the argument that manufacturer costs between the two versions is insignificant.

109

dagosa - " We can’t assign our own meaning" and yet you assign the meaning that some Neons came without drain plugs. Prove it.

110

The Dorman Products web site states that the drain plug is included with the Neon oil pan. How would Parts geek choose which customers get the plug and which customers get the hole? This doesn’t prove that drain plugs are free.

The Dorman transmission pans shown have a drain plug and are $10 more then the ATP pans without. The ATP pans are probably manufactured cheaper, not just the lack of a drain plug.

111

I just noticed a pop up ad on my e-mail. It was selling a Scion sport coupe and made special note that the exhaust had “Quad tips.” No mention whether replacing the oil filter required removing body parts though. Americans buy glitz.

112

@oltimer11.

Sure
just look at the phrase, “when required”. It appears in many of the written descriptions. I get it from reading comprehension and living with a person with a master’s in English Vocabulary who is always correcting me. :wink: You can get pans with plugs or not, either way "as required. " Since there is no indication of an additional charge, the price is the same.

That’s not to say all corporations proof read their advertisements or communicate with the public correctly
(some stores have 10 items or less lines for example when it should be 10 items or fewer
illustration) So, if they want additional money for pans with plugs, they are going to have to tell you otherwise when you order and admit their adds were mistaken.

113

@TwinTurbo‌
Sorry, but your assertion that it is not possible for me to use consumer prices to support the argument that manufacturing costs between two versions is insignificant is taken way out of context not have the original in mind makes a debate go way off track. Whether it costs a contractor a little more or not ( and it doesn’t always for retooling considerations) to make anything, the cost is not always handed on to the manufacturer or the consumer, especially not always in the case of drain plugs.

Crappy made cars of old may well have drain plugs removed for who knows what reason. But, the trend today in removal of plugs, by the way , IT IS NOT WITH ALL AUTOMAKERS, is given more thought then saving money on the plugs. Every part of the design of a car is now considered, especially those having to do with maintenance, BEYOND JUST SAVING MONEY ON THE PART ITSELF.

That is my original assertion, it stands and will not change. It doe not contradict that saving money is important but takes into account that saving money on a part is not as important as the overall profit made long term by a corporation. If that factor affects that result, it won’t be dropped. Toyota (and others ) THINKS that way and like I said, I give GM credit for doing it NOW.

114

On the subject of parts costs/pricing, some years ago I found that GM sold identical ball joints and tie rod ends, etc., to fit Cadillacs and several other GM models. When Cadillac parts were ordered the parts would be labelled and shipped as specific Cadillac parts and priced significantly higher to the dealerships who added their considerable markup. Cadillac owners paid significantly more for the “Aura” of the brand.

115

LOGIC??? WHO SAID THERE WAS LOGIC BEHIND THIS
 THE ONLY LOGIC behind this is in my opinion to make it so difficult to service yourself
that you have to return to the dealership to get the work done
and thus
MAKE THEM MORE MONEY.

I have a special pump that I use for these occasions
I believe its called the Vacula pump. It sort of looks like a big FAT bicycle pump. It can SUCK fluids OUT thru its long thin and stiff walled plastic tubes of variable thickness
and it can also be switched to PUMP fluids IN. SO it is indeed a Vacume Pump
and a Pressure Pump all in one
with a valve switch to change between modes.

In your instance
I would send one of the thinner tubes down the dipstick pipe
and suck out as much ATF as possible. Then when you pull the pan
VERY LITTLE MESS.

Blackbird

116

I realize I am late to the party on this one but here goes.

I am a PRO drain plug mainly due to refusing mess and not feeling like you are held hostage to the “Stealerships” overly inflated labor and part costs.
I also like changing my fluid as it brings me back to my roots of learning. I am getting older but still like to do some preventative maintenance on my vehicles. Some of these items maybe MORE frequent than dealer or even manufactured recommends. Yes it may cost me more in some areas but peace of mind is a factor.

Here are a few examples:

Trans Fluid: I have two modern vehicles and my 2003 Durango was one of the first exposures to the bo drain plug. Fortunately in that scenario the transmission drain pan access bolts were not covered by a exhaust crossover pipe or a cross member support. After I did my first or maybe 2nd I found a online retailer that sold the 545RFE transmission drain pan. Complete with drain plug, plug and play fit for shape, form and alignment. This pan also had a slightly higher capacity and more open area for fluid circulation. The drain plug was on the bottom but used a flush mount Hex key socket to loosen/tighten so no worrying about it getting caught on anything. I purchased the service kit, (filter and gasket) from dealer. At that time I was not aware of the different specifications for each manufacturer so went with dealer purchase of the fluid. Yes a couple of extra bottles just in case.

The first drain prior to installation of the aftermarket pla was fairly messy even with a drain pan, AND a sheet pan underneath the drain pan. After the new pan next chamber was a lot easier and way less messy.

My newer fleet both 2010+ (2012 M37 and 2018 Explorer). Have a new challenge. NON serviceable filters. The Infiniti even a special adapter required for draining the fluid basically a stand pile that needs to be pushed in after drain plug is removed to allow fluid to drain. The problem with that theory and no matter how well intentioned it was
There was no way to be absolutely sure the stand pipe was installed correctly since you couldn’t see it without removing the pan. The plug was not a factor since it either threaded right or it didn’t. My independent mechanic recently did a trans service which for Infiniti is drain and re service the filter is either non existent or hidden deeper in the transmission casing.

Explorer same story. Explorers from about 2011 on at least 2019 I am not sure about 2020z. There was a drain plug and a way to inspect and fill the fluid from the engine compartment side. Here is the kicker
NON serviceable filter, yes one of the key parts of keeping the transmission clean and long lasting. The drain plug and fill tube help but a easy access replaceable filter would be nicer.

FMC recommends fluid changes every 30K even though you are not replacing the filter
probably more frequent changes for that exact reason. The fluid replacement interval is 30K miles. I would probably go with my old school method of 25K. The service is fairly simple just drain, fill and Ops check.
If there was a serviceable filter I might go 30K but then again Ford might say 50K you get the idea. The good part of this is that you can probably do a poor mans flush by removing, fill, wait abojt a thousand miles and drain again and get more
(not all) of the OEM fluid circulated through the system to the drain pan for removal and reservice.

I would change early if my service interval would be reached or exceeded during a long road trip to avoid having the logistics/coordination/ scheduling on the road
This is one I could possibly see using VIOC or Jiffy Lube, not a lot to mess up except for forgetting drain plug, or mixing fluids but then again you have the paer trail to show their accountability.

Spark Plugs: A fairly no brainer ln this one. Most modern day plugs are advertised for 100K at least some even 150K. Yes that maybe good for plug performance but a very good chance in my mi d at least of the OEM plug getting seized in the chamber and risk of breaking at minimum the upper part of the old plug or worst case breaking off in the threaded part of chamber with nothing to grab and having a real mess.

Personally I would go no longer than 50K Max, once the OEM plugs are removed, cost the threads of the new plug with Anti Seize and the plug tip with a small dab of electric grease. I even go so far as a light coating of Die-Electric grease around the perimeter of the coil pack when going back in to reduce risk of getting stuck. 50K can also tell a lot about the engine performance by inspection of the old plugs to make a note of burn/wear patterns. Even, cold, hot, gap etc


Coolant. I am not there yet on my newer vehicles
well one is over 100K. But but I would probably change coolant at leas than recommendations, probably half if nothing else to prevent rust, scale and sludge build up.

Air Filters: I have a CAI kit with removable/washable/reusable engine air filter. I can theoretically remove and wash that daily if I wanted to but usually about 10K or beginning of a long road trip again not a major problem even on the road, just remove, wash allow to shake dry for about 30 minutes and reinstall.

Cabin Air Filree: this is definitely one area where I go well above the manufacturers recommendations usually half. I had a Taurus that the interval was 20K. Mine was pretty much trashed at 15K. I have a K&N washable- reusable for the Explorer so no problem, removing, cleaning, drying and reinstalling at 10K. Same as the CAI filter, remove, wash, shake excess, allo to sit in sun for about 30-60 minutes and re install. If I have a emergency trip during that time I have a spare Paper FRAM Fresh Breeze for that vehicle as a back up, I figure for short term (local use) unit is better than nothing.

I hit dealer for warranty or recall work only. Everything else I either self replace or I have local Independent mechanic for major items, diff service, trans service, or unscheduled items
(warning lights) I even have a local (Mobile Mechanic) If it is above my understanding or ability and or IM not available.

Unless it is a promotional FREEBIE I try to avoid dealer parts since some of them have a high mark up and no consistency. Part at one dealer might be way cheaper then the other even though it is the exact same part number for exact same vehicle.

Sorry for being long winded but I definitely am Anti Dealer. Not so much for the work performed but costs. If a Independent shop can do the same work, for way cheaper than
Duh!!! I also have a decent repoir with my IM and can usually negotiate slightly under estimate. I had a IM in Virginia that was very good. He would quote Mitchell manual for estimate but bill actual and even allowed me to bring my own parts.

117

I realize that you may be anti-dealer but I also feel there are many things that you do not know as to why dealer costs are much higher than say an independent shop or mobile mechanic. That is overhead for one.
A floor plan for the cars on the lot.
Dealers have to send their techs to various schools all the time. Airline fare, cost of school, other expenses add up.
Dealers must have countless special factory service tools. These tools are NOT free. The dealer is charged for them.
Dealers will have the expense of service advisors, warranty clerks, and other office help.
Even promotional gimmicks (say a huge balloon on a tether) is billed to the dealer.
The dealer also has a much larger bill for lease payments, utilities, taxes, and so on.

See my point here? And I barely even started.

4 Likes
118

Well, that may seem like a good idea, but I have mixed feelings about it

I’ve seen plenty of platinum and/or iridium plugs with considerably less than 100K cause the engine to run a little rough, yet no check engine light and/or codes

And here’s why . . . because the plugs are worn, but not enough to meet the parameters for setting a code. Yet if you look at mode 6 data, you can see exactly which cylinders are affected, and you’ll also see that it’s nowhere close to setting a code. Yet doing an ignition tune-up gets the engine purring again :thinking:

So just because there’s no check engine light illuminated and no misfire codes does NOT mean there are absolutely no misfires and everything’s perfect :neutral_face:

The conditions aren’t ideal here. On our fleet vehicles, those with cabin air filters need to be cleaned and/or replaced at every single oil and filter service.

If only everybody were like you . . . there would be far less vehicles being junked and/or traded in early

119

Funny you should mention misfire with no codes.

Right after the Infiniti came back from my IM for the trans/ diff service. There was one more step involved as a prep for a fairly major road trip
two actually but let’s concentrate on the major one. Items were air filters (engine and cabin). Infiniti uses twin throttle bodies so consequently two engine air filters one per bank. Filter changes were uneventful so let’s focus on plugs.

I ordered NGK Irridium exact OEM replacement from Amazon even matched perfectly to the OEM
Ones I removed.

A little bit of a project since both throttle bodies and some tubing have to be removed for the back bank (5-6) but not overly complicated. Infiniti also does things weird in that all my current vehicles until this one were 1-2-3 front-back on either the front bank (FWD) or passengers side (looking forward RWD)
This was 1-3-5 passengers side and 2-4-6 drivers side. My first scare was plug #1. It felt like it was coming out way too easy after breaking torque. I went to A/Z to get a magnet, a spark plug socket wrench that was more fitting for that size and a set of Bosch plugs just as a crazy back up set. After I got home I had a fairly scary few seconds. I was pretty much expecting to pull back half of a spark plug. Figuring the plug broke, even if broken at the head not a big deal as long as I could get the socket down around the anchor but to remove the other half. Put the magnet on the tip expecting half a plug but fortunately it came out in one piece. Did one plug at a time, remove, check gap of new, Anti Sieze, Die Electric Grease, install and move to the next one. Lather rinse repeat until all six are changed and ops checked. I am also slightly different in that after removing the new plug from the box and installing I put the old plug into that same box and label with cylinder number. That way I can review wear patterns and isolate any potential plug problems to that cylinder.

I buttoned up the bonnet, changed air filters and took quick trip around the patch to check for any obvious major problems (misfire, leaks etc
 ). Worked like a champ even drove it around for a couple more day prior to road trip. Nothing.

Fast forward to the following Monday and departure time for my trip. Raining and I leave notice a slight hesitation. Feels and sounds like a misfire but no codes and nothing immedoobvious like a loose connector or vacuum line etc
 stop for lunch and when leaving still doesn’t feel right. Decide to gun it once figuring that if I do get misfire and code I want it now while I am still close enoitto to return home, transfer everything Ofer to the Explorer and be on my way. Well it worked, I finally got the SES light
(CEL, MIL, SES) are basically the same meaning just different manufacturers use different terminology.

I got the light and figuring a misfire, nursed with light throttle back home, transferred cargo and my puppy to the Explorer, placed Infiniti in garage and continued my trip. At that point I didn’t even read the code because even if it came back as a misfire depending on what cylinder would be minimum of about another three-four hour delay. Two-three hours for engine to cool and another hour to R/R plug plus another ops check. I was already behind so stuffed into garage and figured deal with it when I got back.

Fast forward again to return finally read the code. Sure enough MisFire Cylinder #1. I could handle misfire of any but on this vehicle the #1 is the easiest access. Swapped the NGK Iridium for Bosch Double Iridium on that cylinder only and so far so good. Without any obvious defects on the NGK I removed, cracks, breaks, foreign objects etc
 I am going to call it the random bad plug in the lot of six. If I get a misfire code further down the road then I will remove and replace with Bosch Double Iridium and move on. I was surprised because that if I missed anything real obvious like a missed connection or vacuum leak the SES light would have come on immediately during initial start or very aoon after.

These plugs were OEM and no history of changing. Vehicle had just over 104K at replacement so should be good until at least 200K but I wo probably change at 150K.

This apparently was the scenario you mentioned. Misfire without a code. I got the code eventually because I did a full throttle hard acceleration which caused the engine RPM’s to get in the range to trigger the Sensor for the SES light. No major damage other than losing about 75 minutes on my trip time
15 back home, 45 minutes for the swap and backtrack 15 minutes to my SES starting point.

It didn’t feel right from the beginning but couldn’t place it right off. I am glad it went off while still
In the local area instead of the no mans land between DFW and Oklahoma City where the nearest spot to pick up rental for trip was.

Plugs feel thin and cheap from what I have been used to. This is a 14mm anchor nut and a fairly thin body I think too thin but I wasn’t at the design team meeting. This is my first Asian import so a new learning curve. All my previous daily drivers have been European and have had a 5/8 spark plug socket for at least 18 years, I have a 5/8” spark plug socket with extension and small universal
Joint that has lasted eight vehicles until this one.

120

Not exacly . . . I meant misfire without a code EVER

You had a misfire with a code eventually

Close, but not exactly the same thing

If you don’t have a code, not even a pending code, it means it takes more time to get to the bottom of things

The thing with that one plug you had to replace, here’s a few thoughts, based on experience

I’ve found that the most minute things can cause a new plug to misfire

For example . . .

an almost microscopic crack in the porcelain, perhaps from you not even dropping, but merely banging the plug, say on the side of the fender or your toolbox. This can happen very quickly, with you perhaps barely registering it, if at all

A dab of dirt, grease, etc. on the electrode(s) . . . again, this is something that can happen very quickly

Exerting slight sideways pressure when installing that plug. You usually won’t hear the porcelain crack. This is very easy to do, especially if access is tight and the plug is located inside a tube, as many are nowadays, especially on sohc or dohc heads

Plugs that require a 9/16" or 14mm socket seem to be ever more common