If we think that Lexus is anything more than a Toyota, designed with a name plate to make you feel special, you’re as mistaken as the Escalade driver who thinks he isn’t driving a GMC/Chevy. Don’t expect better quality.
Auto companies are designed to make a profit, not only sales but more so parts and service. Toyotas are ENGINEERED to fail like GMs and Fords…just a little later to retain their “quality” reputation. CU reports yearly how American name plates improve, but Asians manage to stay a little ahead.
It takes outstanding engineering for a part to fail shortly after the warranty has expired. The bean counters are just better at Toyota. Price their dealership parts if you don’t think it’s contrived.
Vehicles are designed for a finite life. High end vehicles whose owners are likely to trade-in more frequently may have a design life of say 100,000 miles, whereas a pick-up may have a design life of 200,000 miles. (these are simply arbitrary numbers to illustrate my point)
All volume auto manufacturers, whether Yugo or Mercedes, have large staffs of engineers that scrutinize the life of individual components over time (and mileage) and compare them to the overall design life. Any component found to have a significant remaining life in it is considered to have been over-designed, which translates into higher cost than could be. This is where re-engineering comes in to redesign the component to reduce its expected life to match the overall design life (translation = lowered cost).
In a perfect auto manufacturers world, when the design life is reached, the shocks would collapse, cooling system fail, belts break, mirrors fall off, engine would blow-up, and the whole vehicle collapse in a pile of rust?? all on the same day.
By the way, this practice is not limited to vehicles.
Toyotas are ENGINEERED to fail like GMs and Fords.
They NOT designed to FAIL. The designed to last the longest possible time needed that will yield the highest profit. A car manufacturer can build a car that will last 500k miles…but at what cost. The parts they’ll have to use and the manufacturing techniques…no one could afford it.
So true…and in defense of the auto industry, why make a car that outlasts the mandated safety and pollution regulations and deny employment to the “Tom and Rays” of this world. Livings are made on depreciation and “poor quality”, repair and service, much of which could easily be engineered out of existence .
“By the way, this practice is not limited to vehicles.”
We could fill an entire post on the planned failures in the housing sector.
Vehicles are designed for a finite life. High end vehicles whose owners are likely to trade-in more frequently may have a design life of say 100,000 miles, whereas a pick-up may have a design life of 200,000 miles. (these are simply arbitrary numbers to illustrate my point)
That’s cr*p…
Some of the WORSE vehicles I’ve ever owned were pickups. Junk after 100k miles. Being a Luxury vehicle or a pickup has NOTHING to do with it’s longevity.
All volume auto manufacturers, whether Yugo or Mercedes, have large staffs of engineers that scrutinize the life of individual components over time (and mileage) and compare them to the overall design life. Any component found to have a significant remaining life in it is considered to have been over-designed, which translates into higher cost than could be.
A good portion of parts used in any vehicle is NOT made by the manufacturer. They are outsourced.
I have no idea where you’re getting your information from…But I suggest you find another source…you’re WAY WAY off.
A car manufacturer can build a car that will last 500k miles…but at what cost[?] The parts they’ll have to use and the manufacturing techniques…no one could afford it.
Aren’t today’s diesel cars made to last that long?
A good portion of parts used in any vehicle is [sic.] NOT made by the manufacturer. They are outsourced.
According to your quote, Francizek was speaking of design, not manufacturing.
I have no idea where you’re getting your information from…But I suggest you find another source…you’re WAY WAY off…
Mike, if you have some kind of inside information about how Toyota governs quality, I would appreciate it if you would share your source. Frankly, it sounds like you are enamored with Toyota.
Whitey - watch your [sic]s - Mike’s right. “A good portion…is”
As for modern diesels, pollution controls and power needs have made them more complicated than gas engines, so I doubt they’ll be more reliable. Ford got involved in major problems with one of their recent pickup diesels. I saw under the hood of the latest F350 diesel, it looked like the inside of the engine area of the space shuttle, with pipes, wires, and multiple intercoolers and radiators. Plenty of stuff to break/go bad. Diesels got their reliable reputation years ago, when their simplicity and stout construction made them more reliable. No more.
And it’s obvious that cars (or the parts that make them up) can’t be designed to run forever. How many $50,000 Corollas do you think they’d sell?
Mike, if you have some kind of inside information about how Toyota governs quality, I would appreciate it if you would share your source. Frankly, it sounds like you are enamored with Toyota.
There are so many parts Toyota does NOT make that go into a vehicle…bearings…gears…Do you think every single piece that goes into a transmission or shifter are made by Toyota??? They don’t. Even components like Shocks…auto glass…ignition parts are NOT made by Toyota. So Toyota has little control over the quality of those parts. Now a company like Toyota may buy the highest quality parts available…but that doesn’t mean that those parts are the highest quality parts that can be made…BIG DIFFERENCE. One story reported in the WSJ over 10 years ago about bearings Toyota was using in their transmissions. The bearing plant that supplied the bearings was in the middle of a strike…Toyota decided to wait until the strike was decided…but FORD who also bought their bearings from the same plant instead started buying them from another plant…Toyota decided NOT to buy from them because they knew the quality of the bearings from that plant were no where near the quality of this other plant…Toyota lost some sales because they couldn’t make enough vehicles for the demand…Ford increased sales for that year…then DRASTICALLY increased transmission repairs 2 years later.
If Toyota doesn’t design the specifications, how does the part manufacturer know the part will fit and work properly? If I was an alternator manufacturer and I wanted to bid for Toyota’s business, where would I get the required specifications for the alternator if Toyota doesn’t establish them? How would I design and establish the specifications myself if I didn?t design the rest of the car?
Forgive my ignorance, but I just don’t see how this could be possible.
Mike, I know Toyota doesn’t make parts, but don’t they design their cars from top to bottom?
For this stituation, (tailgate support struts), Toyota would supply physical dimensions and load/performance requirements, and the supplier would design the specific parts that go in the strut. Toyota would not design the size of the piston, pressure of the gas, etc…same thing with, say, a starter. The supplier designs the inner works to meet a set of specifications.
texases, don’t those performance requirements from Toyota influence the specific parts that go into the struts?
My only point is that Toyota had a hand in the design of the parts. I don’t see how it could be any other way and still work.
Mike, I would still appreciate it if you would explain how Toyota could get away with not designing the parts used in its car. In terms of engineering, I just don’t see how Toyota could ask its part suppliers to design their car parts for them and still make it work.
Toyota earned its reputation for reliability by skillfully managing their entire supply line, including their parts suppliers. Clearly, if Toyota didn’t manage its supply lines, the cars would be total crap.
Mike, I know Toyota doesn’t make parts, but don’t they design their cars from top to bottom?
Yes they design the cars from the bottom up. But they DON’T design each and every little part. They farm a good portion of that out. They know company A and B make bearings. Toyota designs a new engine and part of that engine is bearings. They’ll send out specs to several different companies who DESIGN and manufacturer bearings. These companies will design and manufacturing the bearings…All Toyota is come up with a overall spec…NOT the whole design…NOW 40 years MOST of that designing and manufacturing was done in-house. But it got too expensive. More and more are being farmed out. A company that’s dedicated to building bearings can do it better and cheaper then Toyota can.
We have a local company, Lemforder(German owned) that supplies suspension and engine parts for Ford, Nissan, Toyota…amoung others.
When the companies order these parts, they designate a particular failure rate. Straight from the engineer’s mouth giving us a tour. Ford was offered a “better” part using Nissan’s failure rate because if was more expensive for them to retool and build a substandard part given that the design specs were close enough to use either. The part was fully burnished allowing it to run cooler for Nissan but designated working surface only for Ford because that met their failure rate. Ford threatened to cancel the order and go elsewhere if they were supplied the “better” part for the same price.
I saw no reason for the engineer to lie to me.
Therefore, I believe that performance life IS engineered into parts buy the auto company.
That’s why I am cynical enough to believe, that everything is done with profit first in mind and longevity later. (I believe that two of every three cars go back to the dealer for service. Regardless who makes the parts…the dealer makes his profits…parts, service and financing is where each dealership make much of their profit. The auto ibdustry cannot survive on sales alone…
Why is that so hard to understand ???
My only point is that Toyota had a hand in the design of the parts. I don’t see how it could be any other way and still work.
They ONLY had a hand in a spec…tolerance. I’d pretty much guarantee you they did NOT design it.
Mike, I would still appreciate it if you would explain how Toyota could get away with not designing the parts used in its car.
First off there are THOUSANDS of off the shelve parts used by EVERY car manufacturer. Do you have any idea how much it would cost if every single nut, bolt ,screw, bulb, gear was custom designed???
Second…a company dedicated to designing a specific part can do it BETTER and CHEAPER. As I stated earlier…All Toyota has to do is supply a SPEC…It’s then up to the manufacturer how to design and manufacturer it. Take bearings for example…Toyota will supply a spec which includes exact size and shape and stress tolorances…also along with that may be expected longevity…The bearing manufacturer will DESIGN the bearing to meet Toyota’s specs. The SPECS are only one small part of the design…Once the specs are handed off to the bearing manufacturer Toyota is no longer involved in the design process.
We have a local company, Lemforder(German owned) that supplies suspension and engine parts for Ford, Nissan, Toyota…amoung others.
That sounds about right…
When Toyota and Nissan started building vehicles here in the US they looked at LOCAL parts suppliers. It’s cheaper to buy them here then ship them from Japan. My brother-in-law was the Plant manager for Chryco that designed and manufactured transmissions/transaxles. Nissan asked them to design and build a transaxle to every specific failure rate. My brother-in-laws plant COULDN’T do it…(They can now)…But back then they didn’t have the tooling or manufacturing process to build a tranny that good…Sick isn’t it.
It isn’t hard to understand. In fact, you have proven my point that the manufacturer does have at least partial responsibility for the design specifications of its parts. What I was asking for was an explanation from Mike about what he said. I was also asking Mike for proof to back up his claims. Are you Mike?