Intermittent failues are such a pain

[bing]

Well I’m gonna end this. There was no leak anywhere. It was a preventative repair, like the alternator. But if there had been a leak somewhere, they would have called and told me and I would have told them to fix it and paid for it. If it wasn’t done right I would have brought it back. No big deal.

I suppose the same scenario could be a dishonest person slipping on the ice at the dealer and claiming untold injuries. I guess if you have been burned by crooks and chislers before I can understand the apprehension but still I would have been shocked if a shop told me they wouldn’t install my Delco alternator in my Olds that was also a preventative repair. If it ever does happen though I’ll understand a little better.

[Triedaq]

My late aunt always had a smart comeback for a question. She was good at putting dents in a car. Once, when she took her car into a body shop, the body shop technician asked “How on earth did you get that dent?”. Her response was “That’s my business. ,My job s to put the dents in the car and your job is to take them out”. When I take my vehicle to a shop with a problem it’s the job of the shop to make the diagnosis. My job is to drive the car and the mechanic’s job is to fix it.

[kurtwm1]

@asemaster

To put it in perspective, no dentist in her right mind would agree to do a root canal based only on customer input.

I would, if I were a dentist. Heck, I would give each poster here a free root canal and even skip the anesthesia.

[irlandes]

@VOLVO_V70

A senior technician making statements about peoples way of conducting business might be taken more seriously if they check the spelling on their thread header.

It’s called 'Typo". You are digging awfully deep and its called ad hominem attack.

[irlandes]

@NYBo

This thread stopped being productive quite a while ago. As my mother-in-law says, “It takes all kinds.” Perhaps we should leave it at that.

I moderate a couple low traffic boards now, and in the past moderated several high traffic boards. If someone starts complaining about a thread he doesn’t like, I ask if he wants us to send the cops to take away the man with the gun so he can stop reading it.

However, I do agree with you that this thread stopped being productive. Bully; engage in ad hominem attacks; throw out a cup or two of insults and sarcasm; whine about all the evil customers you have to put up with; rinse and repeat. But, with all these great mechanics on here, no one had a practical suggestion as to what I should have done, instead of paying a Toyota mechanic good money to replace the known bad part and drive it another 100,000 miles to date. My problem, shut up and go away. Right?

So, with all the criticism from you guys, simply because I figured out what was wrong with my car, tell me in plain English what I should have done. You will be doing a public service, since many other customers will be reading this. Stop with the boorish insults and be specific. Junked it or traded it off to make you feel better about yourself? Drive it that way forever? But, in any case, DO NOT TRY TO GET A MECHANIC TO FIX IT! Really? Really?

As one man said, apparently I was supposed to, in my late 60’s, go to mechanic school, get a job as a mechanic, build up my own shop, install a hoist, all because the current business model makes it virtually impossible for a shop to find an intermittent? Really?

[Barkydog]

I can understand irlandes not wanting to pay for a diagnostic fee, I am not a shop owner but if I was I would not have a problem saying it is on your dime, if it does not fix it don’t come back whineing to me. Restaraunt business was was my background, ‘what do you count the asparagus spears?’ Yes maam 5 per plate. Just would pretend I was watching a bad movie at times. still can’t spell restaraunt, does not mean I did not know how to run one. As for dealing with car shops sure a misdiagnosis every now and then, like I said I think a front wheel bearing is going, they do a ujoint, no fix, ujoint was getting a little sloppy so I was like would have gone sooner or later, but shop was like, ok we found using the stethescope wheel bearing is bad, we will drop the labor on the ujoint, and do the bearing.

Hope the guys were paid hourly.

[irlandes]

Thanks, Barky. I did not pay much attention to the sarcastic insult about the typo in the title. He was digging deep because he couldn’t think of a better insult. And, he knew all the time it was a typo that had nothing to do with my performance as a Senior tech.

But, let me clarify on the diagnostic fee. That is a normal part of going to a mechanic.

What I mind is paying a diagnostic fee, knowing full well they are not going to diagnose the problem because it is an intermittent. The current business model simply cannot deal effectively with an intermittent. Not even the best mechanics can do it. It is not a misdiagnose issue; it’s an impossible to diagnose issue for a $100 an hour shop. (And most mechanics here well know it, except for the very worst.) Which is why I drove it until I found the technical information I needed to know what the problem was. Toyota dealer still got around $500 revenue to fix it. This was not a charity job.

I had to go grind corn for my wife’s 36 pet chickens. I was thinking while i was cranking the grinder that later tonight I am going to write a posting on the other side of the fence. Evil mechanics I have known over the last 60 years.

I will store it on HD and set Kalarm to remind me to post it in a couple months. That will give the wounded and bleeding egos time to heal from the exposure to the horror or a person who has not been a mechanic for 5,365,621 years actually knowing what caused his failure

[eddo]

@irlandes

So, with all the criticism from you guys, simply because I figured out what was wrong with my car, tell me in plain English what I should have done. You will be doing a public service, since many other customers will be reading this. Stop with the boorish insults and be specific. Junked it or traded it off to make you feel better about yourself? Drive it that way forever? But, in any case, DO NOT TRY TO GET A MECHANIC TO FIX IT! Really? Really?

Any criticism you received was not because you diagnosed the issue yourself. Kudos to you on that.

Any criticism you received was because of the attitude towards mechanics you displayed, and the ego you used to display that attitude. Your original post came off as arrogant and rude. Subsequent posts came across the same way. How you present yourself can go along way towards the reaction you get.
In your original post, you didn’t ask for opinions on what you should have done with your vehicle. You already told us it was fixed, so why should we bother trying to attempt to diagnose it further online?

CURRENT BUSINESS MODEL or not, how you present yourself to others, especially online where emotions are hard to determine, is how we others decide to react to you. It’s my belief that you got exactly what you were after when you first wrote this post- a bickering match, where your skewed view towards mechanics had an outlet to shine.

Congrats.

[eddo]

@irlandes

I did not pay much attention to the sarcastic insult about the typo in the title.

Really? 'cause you’ve mentioned it several times now…

[NYBo]

[quote=“irlandes, post:87, topic:94579, full:true”]What I mind is paying a diagnostic fee, knowing full well they are not going to diagnose the problem because it is an intermittent.
[/quote]I must have patronized especially honest mechanics or ones who are very poor businessmen because I have yet to pay a diagnostic fee when they were unable to duplicate the problem.

[Barkydog]

In 15 years with my shop I have paid 1 diagnostic fee, the repair prices are .75% percent of a dealer, and a tad bit higher than other shops. The diagnostic fee involved removing the instrument cluster for testing as many guages were bad and I skipped the $500 repair for a new cluster and programming and for $20 soldered new stepper motors in.

[WhoSaidRick]

@irlandes

Evil mechanics I have known over the last 60 years.

I have known of my share of dishonest and/or incompetent mechanics over the years, but honestly I truly believe that most have their hearts in the right place and just want to fix the vehicle the best they can. Maybe I am just naive, however I think it is unfair to lump all mechanics in the dishonest category.

I will say that many mechanics probably do not always have all of the possible diagnostic tools available at their disposal unless in a dealership setting. They are working against the clock to try to make a living and I feel this is the biggest downfall to the repair industry.

Years ago C&D Battery which makes huge lead acid batteries for substations, cell towers, missile sites, telephone head-ins ect… started paying their employees piece rate, production went up, quality went down and the employees pay stayed around the same or may have increased or decreased slightly.

While short term the company margins improved, it was quickly negated by a huge increase in warranty claims. They were cranking out garbage.

I do not fault the employees as they were basically put into a position at the start of their shift they were put on a proverbial treadmill and had to keep up the hectic pace to pay the bills. I would have had to do the same thing. No one could afford to slow down to ensure quality. I would have to do the same thing as those folks did.

I feel this is probably the case in the automotive repair industry.

Intermittent problems are hard to track down in any field, and I believe in the automotive repair field its harder than most.

@irlandes

That will give the wounded and bleeding egos time to heal from the exposure to the horror or a person who has not been a mechanic for 5,365,621 years actually knowing what caused his failure

Emotions are running high, its probably best for everyone to step back, take a deep breath and carry on. The mechanics here have no dogs in the race so to speak, they are not going to make any money off anyone’s issues here. In the end it really doesn’t matter to anyone here if your vehicle is fixed, or I prefer drum brakes or joe blow says this or that. For me its a forum for entertainment, learning, debating (Not arguing!), and reminiscing.

Sometimes when you read something posted its hard to tell what tone is trying to be used, that the joy of forums I suppose. One person say something and it may be misinterpreted or it wasn’t posted in the most clear manner and next thing you know everyone is angry. I don’t know how many text messages have caused fights between my wife and I because of misinterpretation.

@irlandes

The current business model simply cannot deal effectively with an intermittent. Not even the best mechanics can do it. It is not a misdiagnose issue; it’s an impossible to diagnose issue for a $100 an hour shop.

THIS is the issue. Hit the nail on the head and I feel most will agree with this statement. The system is broken.

[WhoSaidRick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPE8KNCA6jk

Been away, haven’t seen you in a while
How’ve you been?
Have you changed your style and do you think
That we’ve grown up differently? Don’t seem the same
Seems you’ve lost your feel for me

So let’s leave it alone, 'cause we can’t see eye to eye
There ain’t no good guys, there ain’t no bad guys
There’s only you and me and we just disagree
OO - oo - oohoo oh - oh - o-whoa

I’m going back to a place that’s far away. How bout you?
Have you got a place to stay? Why should I care?
When I’m just trying to get along We were friends
But now it’s the end of our love song

So let’s leave it alone, 'cause we can’t see eye to eye
There ain’t no good guys, there ain’t no bad guys
There’s only you and me and we just disagree
OO - oo - oohoo oh - oh - o-whoa

[WhoSaidRick]

@Triedaq

When I was in high school, my dad did business with a small DeSoto/Plymouth dealer. The head mechanic was also the service manager. When I would bring in one of our family’s cars with a problem I couldn’t figure out, the first words our of his mouth were"What do you think is causing the problem?“. Sometimes, when I would make a stab at it, he would shake his head and say “Use your brains, boy”. Sometimes he would say, *I think you are on the right track, now think a little harder”. The agency later started selling Morris Minors, MGs and after Chrysler dropped the DeSoto, the agency picked up the Studebaker franchise. My dad bought a Studebaker from the dealer. When I would take my Dad’s Studebaker in for servicing, the service manager would come up to me and say “Had a Morris in the other day with a problem that had us stumped for a while. He would then tell me the symptoms and ask"What so you think was wrong with it?”. I learned a lot nor only about cars, but problem solving skills.

Its gems like this that make this forum.

Triedaq, I LOVE your stories the are very interesting to me and cover a wide range of topics. If you wrote some of them down in a book I would buy it.

[irlandes]

@eddo

Any criticism you received was not because you diagnosed the issue yourself. Kudos to you on that. Any criticism you received was because of the attitude towards mechanics
you displayed, and the ego you used to display that attitude.

Go back and read the thread from the start. I just did, and there was absolutely nothing rude or arrogant in the original posting. Nothing at all. Most of the rudeness and arrogance came in the responses. Such as yours, even accusing me of deliberately creating a bickering match. I don’t think anyone noticed the refrigerator issue which was an example of poor diagnosing in another field.

For example, the person who dumped in the worst customer of his career as if that were relevant to this thread. It wasn’t. So, why did he think it was relevant? It was extremely insulting to be compared to that fiend. But, that is what he did.

Also, the very first response and those who agreed with him.

I displayed no hostility to mechanics until they said some really nasty things to me, such as this posting 88 of yours. The customers who read this in the future will see if even if you do not.

Yet, there was one person who actually agreed with me that the current system makes it impossible to find an intermittent in most cases which was part of the original issue. Did my postings change while he read it?

By the way, over the years many mechanics on this board have said they expect to be paid for diagnosing time. And, they should be. There has even been defense of the flat $100 fee for reading code no matter how long it really takes. That becomes on this thread: someone said he knows no one who charges for diagnosing.

This thread included both good and bad. But, most of the bad was not started by me. I told a true tale about taking my car in, maybe 10 years ago, and agreeing to sign the waiver, just replace the canister. This obviously antagonized several people who joined in the attack on me. Any view of rudeness and arrogance on my part was solely my statement that I was capable of knowing the canister was bad. Until you kicked me around a while.

Several of you did present yourselves in a very negative way, and lost credibility.

[bing]

I think this topic has been beaten to death. The only thing I’ll add to the fire is that “time/labor” is not the only cost. If you have a high priced piece of equipment, you have to amortize the use of it every time regardless of how many minutes its used. Same thing with an MRI, a certain fee is charged for the use of the high priced equipment regardless of how long it is used.

[Barkydog]

this petty infighting gains nothing nowhere. not saying I would not fight tooth and nail for what I beleive, so carry on, with a song

[WhoSaidRick]

@bing

The only thing I’ll add to the fire is that “time/labor” is not the only cost. If you have a high priced piece of equipment, you have to amortize the use of it every time regardless of how many minutes its used. Same thing with an MRI, a certain fee is charged for the use of the high priced equipment regardless of how long it is used.

Yes Bing, very good point. The cost spent on a medical diagnosis makes auto diagnosis seem like a total bargain. And if a Doctor is wrong they order more tests and they get paid every time and no one questions the DR.

Auto techs have it rough. My wife had a CAT scan, it was only 4 grand.

You know the difference between a mechanic and a doctor???

Doctors Bury their mistakes!

[WhoSaidRick]

@Barkydog

this petty infighting gains nothing nowhere.

Very true. I think everyone need to walk away, breath and carry on.

I was putting together a power wheels for my daughter and while looking at the motor drive on it I had an idea for a new type of braking system, a self contained unit that captures all of the brake dust, is easily removed for replacement, and is activated electrically. It would simply slide off of a splined hub for replacement, and you would send it in to have the dust sequestered and the friction material renewed.

I am serious and I want to post my idea. Maybe it would be a good diversion for everyone. I am seriously drawing up a design. I am on a new medication and it makes me feel very creative.

[Barkydog]

@WhoSaidRick did you listen to the song$ nice idea, but you have to start somewhere, looking at powerwheels is a start, but it is a long leap to a car, keep us posted.