I know it’s preventable, just as most of the problems we get on this discussion board. So judged by that …
The EV-1 could have been profitable, but not as profitable as their other vehicles at the time.
Wikipedia lists the EV1 as being produced from 1996 to 1999. And I’m sure most remember what vehicles were big profit makers back then; large trucks and SUVs. Why risk making a little profit on the EV1 when you can rake in the cash with a Silverado or Suburban? Just not worth the risk in their eyes, I bet.
“Bob Lutz said that when the “gangster style” Chrysler 300 skyrocketed to success, he brought one into their design team to study. Guys from his corporate offices then applied stickers to the vehicle to identify things that violated GM’s aesthetic design mandates from which they could not deviate, known in the trade as “design cues”. He said there were over 90 post-it notes on the vehicle identifying things that if they emulated them would violate their mandated “design cues”. IMHO GM is way too “risk averse” to successfully lead in a new technology.”
GM was this way, but changed. It started with the Cadillac CTS and continued with other cars, like the Malibu. The Chrysler 300 style changed in 2005. Chevrolet did not change the design of the Malibu until 2008. Lutz allowed the Malibu project manager to defy the design rules and GM came up with a winner. I imagine his experience with the Chrysler 300 helped him make that decision on the Malibu. And don’t forget the CTS-V, first brought out in 2004. It has often been called the finest American production sedan (and wagon) ever built.
“…expensive Volts with 35 mile ranges are the GM response.”
That is the response to the Toyota Prius, not an experimental truck that no one drives. The Volt is a generation newer than the Prius and actually makes commuting possible without the ICE. I’m not knocking the Prius. It was a forward-thinking car at inception and has blossomed into a product line for Toyota. Of course, they did have to pay a little something to the inventor, but they did bring it to market.
The Prius plug in for less then the Volt could make the Volt incidental if Toyota desires to equal their range . Toyota is just sitting on extended range Prius models as the competition comes on line. Now only 18 miles, but at less then $30k, Toyota is betting that the true higher mpg over greater trips, will be better then the Volt. A true electric car with practical range for a price drivers are willing to pay is still too far away by automakers. The so called experimental RAV is a legit commuter and no truck. This was/ is a capable commuter with less expensive, recyclable, durable batteries 12 YEARS AGO ! Some are still on the road but Panasonic is prohibited from making replacement batteries large enough for the car by cost and patent fee infringements. This forces the use of more difficult to work with, lithium batteries.
Interesting you mentioned the RAV4 EV. Toyota just announced a new RAV4 EV, they’ll sell 2,600 of them. Guess how much more than a base RAV4…100%. It’ll be about $50k, compared to $25k for the regular version.
Batteries that can actually be used in EVs are still VERY expensive. There are many ‘breakthroughs’ on the horizon, but until battery costs decrease by more than 50% the economics don’t favor EVs.
And for those wanting to not ‘fund terrorists by buying oil from the middle east’, little of our oil comes from there. And much of the raw materials and finished parts in EVs come from elsewhere - do we want to tie our transportation needs to China?
@the same mountainbike - I’d reckon that the Tesla Roadster scores a 200+ mile range because half its $100K cost is due to the monster-sized battery array. 
MikeInNH:
“Tesla is actually now profitable”
Where do you get this info, Mike?
According to Tesla’s most recent 10-Q, they had $39.375 million in revenues, but $120.302 million in expenses, for a net operating loss of $80.927 million. That’s not exactly profitable. Over the last 12 months, they’ve had a profit margin of -124.56%, an operating margin of -123.13%, a return on assets of -28.59%, a return on equity of -118.03%, EBITDA of -$234.57 million, EPS of -$2.53, operating cash flow of -$114.36 million, and free cash flow of -$167.88 million.
If you ignore operating expenses (R&D, sales, administrative, etc), you could claim that they might be making a marginal profit on each vehicle sold…
But as a company, they’re bleeding at extreme rates, and that rate of loss is only accelerating. I’d love for them to succeed, but I don’t see it happening anytime soon, and I don’t think they have a lot of time left to turn profitable without risk of liquidation.
Their current cars are sold out for this year. I guess that technically they won’t be profitable until they deliver the vehicles and then collect the money. But without any unforeseen problems they’re sales out paces money spent. They expect to sell more vehicles next year.
the same mountainbike
“Considering that the Tesla roadster had a range of over 200 miles and was 100% electric, I personally think the 35 mile range on the Volt was a joke. The Volt was really no more energy efficient than the Prius”
Completely disagree, TSM. The Tesla roadster and the Volt went after different niche markets and aren’t really comparable vehicles. Can you drive the Tesla roadster from Chicago to St. Louis without stopping for several hours to recharge? Nope. Can you in the Volt? No problem - you could do it all day long.
Now, would the Prius be more efficient at that trip? Yep. But can the Prius drive most people’s daily commutes without using a drop of gas? Nope. The Volt can, however.
They are all really niche vehicles that are compromises in different ways. Depending on your usage habits and needs, one might be better than the other, and one might be a better fiscal choice. A coworker has a Volt and their gas usage (or complete lack thereof) is incredibly impressive and makes it a far more energy efficient choice for her. However, fiscally, she likely would have been better off in a traditional IC-powered compact car. Even the Prius would have been doubtful to have paid its price premium off.
But if the 35 mile range of the Volt is a joke to you, what is the 11 mile range in the Prius plug-in? That likely is every bit as poor of a financial return as the Volt, even though the Prius plugin is cheaper…
You make a good point that they’re very different vehicles, however it’s very commmon in New England for people to commute more than 35 miles round trip. My own commute is 31 miles each way. My point was that if Tesla can build a vehicle that can go over 200 miles on a single charge, GM should (given their far greater resources) be able to build a vehicle that will go a lot longer than 35 miles on a charge. I’m unimpressed by a 35 mile range.
I should add also that the Volt is $10,000 more expensive than the Prius. I’d expect that price to fetch a significant advantage in the Volt over the Prius. It doesn’t. I’m sincerely happy that your coworker’s Volt is working so well for him/her, but he/she paid a huge premium to own a Volt.
GM has heavily promoted the Volt as being the next “wonder” of the automotive marketplace… Looking at the price and the actual performance specs, I think they should have done far better given their resources.
Of course, to get that 200 mile range, you’re looking at a MUCH more expensive vehicle. You could buy 2 Volts for less than 1 Tesla Roadster.
The fact is that the batteries are what make these vehicles expensive - so you don’t want to pay for any more batteries than what you actually need. Since your commute is 31 miles each way, a Tesla Roadster’s range is serious overkill…
But it all comes down to really understanding your own driving habits. If you drove the exact same number of miles each and every day of the year, you might find that one vehicle works better for you than another. For example, at $3.75 per gallon ($3.95 for premium for the Volt) and $0.08 per kWh, based on Edmunds TMV (minus federal credits) and announced prices, as well as assuming no time-value for money (bad assumption), you’ll see that the purchase price + fuel costs for a comparison of a Chevrolet Volt, Toyota Prius, Tesla Roadster, Toyota Prius Plugin, and old-fashioned Ford Focus would give you the following best options:
10 year product life (fully depreciated at 10 years):
0-35 miles per day: Ford Focus
35+ miles per day: Toyota Prius (barely beating the Focus and the Volt on the lower end of that range)
15 year product life:
0-20 miles per day: Ford Focus
25-50 miles per day: Chevrolet Volt
60+ miles per day: Prius
20 year product life:
0-15 miles per day: Ford Focus
20-60 miles per day: Chevrolet Volt
70 miles per day: Prius
The Volt only starts showing up in year 11 as having a payback. That’s a long time, and granted, is only that short thanks to a $7500 tax credit. The Prius Plugin never really shows up as having payback at all, nor the Tesla. I did not analyze this for a Model S, Rav4 EV, or Focus Electric…
Now, it should be noted that higher gas prices push things much more in favor of EVs or plugins. If gas were at $5 per gallon ($5.20 for premium for the Volt), the Volt shows up paying back in year 8 for daily driving 35-40 miles. At 10 years, its winning the 30-50 mile daily range, and at 15 years, it wins the 20-70 mile daily range.
Personally, I find those payback periods to be a bit long, and my daily driving to be too short to justify a Volt, even at $5/gal. For some people, though, it does make sense. For you, the Volt actually isn’t far off your 62 mile round trip commute for being a decent choice, though the payback could be a bit long. At current gas prices up through $5/gal, I’d say the Prius was the better choice $-wise. Above that, though, and the Volt becomes a hedge play - pay more now with the ability to shield yourself later.
(disclaimer: I do hold Ford stock as of 5/8, and may well hold other autos as well through mutual funds, though not directly).
TSMB - why worry about the 35 mile range on the Volt? That’s the reason it has an engine, too.
A seriously overpriced vehicle to me is the Mitsubishi i, $30k for a tiny car with ~50 miles of range. A Prius C is a much better deal.
Of course, to get that 200 mile range, you’re looking at a MUCH more expensive vehicle. You could buy 2 Volts for less than 1 Tesla Roadster.
But wouldn’t the comparable vehicle from Tesla be the Model S?? Sells for $49k. Due out in 2013. Comes with a range of 160 miles, 200 miles or 300 miles.
GM is working on a new generation of the Volt which is suppose to have a range of 100 miles. Should be out the same time the Model S is out.
And then there’s the Nissan Leaf that has a range of 62 miles before the engine kicks in and costs LESS then the Volt.
People don’t realize that driving habits and car length have much to do with a car’s efficiency, whether it be electric or gas. Check the mileage figures of the minis. They can’t even match the longer Corolla for highway mileage. Just as a longer boat is more efficient the faster it travels, the longer car is as well. Whether electric or gas, if you do much interstate travel, you are better with a larger car. That’s why minis should only be considered for city use. Consequently, a longer electric is necessary for more efficient highway speed travel. That’s part of arguement for cars like Toyota’s RAV. Given the payback…still, the auto industry knows that the best bang for he buck is a compact, Corolla size car for long term economy. If they have their way, it will always be the case too.
@MikeInNH - yes, it would. I even noted that I did not analyze its cost… I didn’t because I don’t have firm info on cost (let’s see if the price actually is $49k) or tax credits available for it. Makes the comparison rather hard.
And yes, the Leaf would be a good one to throw in - as would the Focus Electric, which has a price just above that of the Leaf but a longer range and much shorter recharge time. I did have to end the analysis somewhere, you know. I pretty much limited my analysis to the vehicles TSM was mentioning (Volt, Prius, Tesla Roadster) plus a classic IC-only compact car and the Prius plugin. Turns out that the Prius plugin really is almost never the best deal - so if GM did such a poor job on the Volt, what does that mean for Toyota? And unlike TSM was letting on, there are cases where the Volt becomes a decent option among those vehicles. That isn’t to say that there aren’t cheaper options yet… but I’m not about to analyze every vehicle on the market.
MB and I both live in NH…and commutes over 30 miles each way is the norm…NOT the exception. My current commute is almost 50 each way. The Volt is NOT a viable solution for most commuters here in NH (or the New England Boston area). 35 mile range is just way too low.
But I’ll wait and see what the future holds. This is just the beginning of the electric cars. New technology in motors and batteries are being worked on now. I believe that there’s a good future for the all electric car. HOPEFULLY the big three will keep investing in this technology. They have the resources and technical expertise.
Heck, I could have thrown in the Fusion Energi, too, if I could find out pricing and electric-range. The leaked specs I’ve seen would have it surpassing the Prius plugin pretty easily in terms of MPGe. Since the Fusion hybrid will still be a tad under the Prius for mpg but above the Volt’s, I would guess that the Energi would have an electric-only range somewhere between the Prius plugin and the Volt’s, since it is claimed to beat the Volt by 8 MPGe and the Prius plugin by 13MPGe.
That’s the fun thing about these - the technology is really growing rather quickly by industry standards, and the companies are just leapfrogging each other. They’re not solutions for everyone, but neither was the Prius when it first came out - and it took years for Toyota to make that project profitable and a worthwhile consideration for even just a few customers. The Volt, for as much as some have trashed it for low sales numbers, is actually selling about as well as the Prius did in its fourth and fifth year of production, and is actually more profitable than the Prius was at that time.
Is it the be-all, end-all? Oh, heck no… but it isn’t nearly as bad financially for the company or consumer as people are saying.
Mike…I am not so optimistic as you thinking that the big three will dive into electrics at competitive prices. The ICE is too big a money maker. Just like Toyota is big on Hybrids that still need routine service like any gas car every 5k miles, so will GM and Ford go grudgingly for all electrics. They will never support the development of inexpensive battery technology. Kicking and screaming through govt. regs perhaps. The political climate is that corporations can do no wrong and know what’s best for the rest of us…that means cheap functional EVs are not in their or our near future.
Of course, as I showed, the 35 mile range is a bit of a red herring. You can go MUCH further - its all a question of how much do you drive per day, what’s the cost of gas, and how long of a payback period can you accept? Even at $5 per gallon, it could be the best financial pick of those options I analyzed over 15 years if you have a commute up to 70 miles per day, even though it only has a 35 mile electric range… simply because the Prius would actually use more $ in gas and electricity, all the way past 100 miles per day, offset by the lower cost of the vehicle.
Would a longer EV range be better? Sure, it might. But it will also cost you more in batteries, which are the expensive part. Until those come down in price, it really is a tradeoff of battery cost vs. gas costs, and in many cases it is just cheaper to have a shorter electric only range and use some gas, too, than it would be to make the range long enough to have it be capable of being electric only (and there’s the added benefit of the essentially unlimited range in the plugin hybrid vs. the limited of an ev only)