@Bing–“While the national unemployment rate continues to hover above 8 percent, 97 percent of 2011 Augustana graduates seeking employment have accepted a position related to their major or chosen field”
I would bet that the classes at Augustana are small, the students receive a lot of individual attention, and the students are, for the most part, full time resident students. When a student is in this type of environment, as opposed to a commuter campus or an online institution, students tend to really be caught up in their education. There tend to be more discussions with their professors and other students than in commuter campuses. This isn’t to say that a student won’t receive a good education at a commuter campus or even taking online courses, but it takes more effort on the part of the student.
IMHO college should be a venue for acquiring the knowledge, skills, and credentials for someone to successfully pursue a carreer paths of their choice. Unfortunately, I think a lot of colleges are seeking ways to get “asses in the classes”, ways to fill the seats and get maximum revenue from the students, rather than focusing on the curricula and the competancies out the door. Colleges are full of tricks to do this such as offering programs not challanging to the intellect where a degree can be accomplished without any competancy in any subject being gained, requiring people in technical programs to take liberal arts electives, and piling on fees to pad the cash flow while advertising a low tuition.
I recently had a discussion with a lifelong academic in liberal arts about the value of liberal arts courses as a requirement in technical programs. He pontificated about how this created an “educated person”. He stated that “liberal arts courses teach them to think”. Sooooo the automotive technology courses aren’t enough to teach them to think? I’ll put the ability of an automotive technology graduate to think up against a liberal arts graduate’s any day of the week. Diagnosing and repairing an automobile takes an ability to analyze and solve problems that a philosophy major will never know. An automotive technology program also requires an ability to build on knowledge. Years of free electives doesn’t.
"Unfortunately, I think a lot of colleges are seeking ways to get “asses in the classes”, ways to fill the seats and get maximum revenue from the students. . . ."
Many colleges and universities have been overly concerned with the retention of students and the result has been the “dumbing down” of the curriculum. In my day, if I wasn’t doing well in my classes, it was my fault. Today, if Crudney or Little Iodine isn’t doing well, it is the professor’s fault and pressure is put on the professor by the administration to be less demanding.
Triedaq: (How do you do the @Triedaq anyway?) Yeah that’s true or at least it was and I assume it still is. The majority take it seriously plus they have a good reputation in the 3 or 4 state area for placement. One summer I was taking an economics class and a required religion class. The religion class had only 4 people in it but they decided to go ahead with it anyway. Studied Old Man and the Sea and other works as it related to existentialism. It was a blast and got to know the prof well. Back in 1969 anyway when the annual cost with meals was $2000 not the current $32,000.
“IMHO college should be a venue for acquiring the knowledge, skills, and credentials for someone to successfully pursue a carreer paths of their choice.”
It’s a start, but there is still a alot to learn. I was a mentor for a group of engineering students at a local university. I gave them a project that was important to us and thought that if we worked together, it would be a success. They must not have had much time, because their effors were poor. They did not understand the problem, and did not ask for clarification. When I tried to offer some coaching, they didn’t want it. Eventually, I did the job myself. I wndered how students at such a prestegious university could do such shoddy work. Then it occurred to me that maybe all students are like this, me included. I learned a great deal about problem solving on the job. While college was a good base for this, it was just the beginning.
" He stated that “liberal arts courses teach them to think.”"
All college courses should do that. They are a basis for learning how to solve problems. As I mentioned in the paragraph above, it’s just a start. I found that I and I think most other college graduates have tunnel vision. The don’t understand how to think critically. After I come up with an idea, I not only ask what is right, but what is wrong with the idea. Students and many others are too eager to hypothesize a solution, accept it, and run with it. Tunnle vision is common until a person learns from experience (failure) that a little critical thinking up front can help avoid making changes later. Those detours can get expensive.
I learned a great deal about problem solving on the job.
How does ANYONE get through college with an engineering degree and NOT able to do problem solving??
I’ve met some of my daughters classmates at MIT. I’ve had to pick her up from college a few times at 10pm…I sat in on a few of their collaboration sessions working out a few problems. These kids were extremely adapt at solving problems. I was very impressed.
When I hire fresh-outs…we give them a knowledge test and thinking test. The kids that came from good universities with decent grade point averages (3.0 or higher) didn’t have any problem with the test. And all the ones we hired did very well. I’ve hired from (MIT, BU, BC, UNH, UMass-Lowell) just to name a few. The kids I interviewed from University of Phoenix - couldn’t even pass the basic skills test. And they had no idea how to solve some of the basic problem solving tasks.
One of my few talents is appearing intelligent on standardized tests. It has amazed me that the straight A students who struggled until the time limit bell was rung when taking “intelligence” tests often scored considerably below me. After working one night until 9:00, then partying until past 3:00, then getting pumped up on coffee I took one of the college entrance exams and scored among the top 10% while students who had studied for the test were well below me. I was offered OCS and Naval Aviation pilot training when drafted in the Marines due to the test scores. People much more intelligent than me seem to let the tests intimidate them. Testing is necessary but it seems that the testing isn’t nearly as accurate as it could be.
Testing is necessary but it seems that the testing isn’t nearly as accurate as it could be.
May not be accurate…but you have to rely on something. As a hiring manager I just can’t afford to take a chance on a MAYBE. While testing isn’t 100% accurate…I have found that 90% of the kids I hire that pass the test have done well. I don’t have the time to waste trying to find out if one of the kids who didn’t do well on the test will be able to do the work.
Is that system flawed…I’ll admit it is…but I know of no other way.
“How does ANYONE get through college with an engineering degree and NOT able to do problem solving??”
Not as well as after they have been on the job for a while solving problems every day. It takes a while to get deeply into a project to really begin to understand the issues well enough to be effective.
@jtsanders–In many probems, both knowledge and experience are necessary. I, along with an electrical engineer who retired from my institution as associate director of facilities tried to repair a water softener at our church. After replacing some O-ring seals and cleaning a screen, it still leaked and didn’t function. We finally called a repairman. One of the problems was that the O-ring seals we bought were defective and the second problem was a venturi that pulled the brine water into the resin bed. Now my engineer friend is very good at solving problems. He rebuilds old farm tractors. We have done many projects together to save our church some money. However, the water softener repairman had seen a good number of water softeners and knew right where the problem was.
Some years back, I bought a textbook at a yard sale on appliance repair that was written for a trade school course. The student had to have a knowledge of chemistry and electronics to understand this book. The treatment of semiconductors was so good that I used the explanation in an upper division computer architecture and hardware course that I taught.
Not as well as after they have been on the job for a while solving problems every day. It takes a while to get deeply into a project to really begin to understand the issues well enough to be effective.
My computer science classes and multiple math classes…all I did was solve problems. That’s the nature of the classes. Solving math problems…or solving programming problems. Back when I graduated from college…there were only a few colleges that even had degrees in Computer Science. So they’d hire people with a engineering background or math background and train them…reason for this was that if you have a degree in one of those disciplines - you learned how to problem solve.
Yes I agree that work gives you different and maybe more problems to solve…but from what I’ve seen…good colleges challenge students to think and problem solve.
I like to think that I am above average. But I realize that in some areas I am sorely lacking while in a few fields things just make sense. I could have spent time in Fort Leavenworth for what I said to an officer when I was 19 and recognized that he was clueless as to orienting a map to know where we were. His superior education didn’t enable him to recognize what seemed very obvious to me. I often wonder if I had struggled and gotten a degree how different life might have been. But I have enjoyed more success than I deserved and with all things considered I am doing quite well. And lucky for me I never was responsible for more than a dozen people at any time in my life. Managing beyond direct supervision was way beyond my talents. And lucky for me, if the weather looks good I may visit the coast this weekend and poke my feet in the Gulf. I wonder how warm the water will be at Galveston?
I agree 100% with everything you’ve said regarding generic aptitude tests, etc. Can you email me at onthefenceeconobox at gmail ? I have a question (and a reading suggestion you might find interesting)
All this academic talk reminds me of Barry Goldwater back in 1964. When asked about his college performance he said: “I’m no phi beta kappa, I hire them”.
What's been concerning me with colleges these days are the "For Profit Colleges". They accept anyone - no matter what you did in highschool or how well you scored on your SAT's. As long as you have the money they accept you. And from what I've seen their courses are really dumbed down to accommodate this. I've interviewed a few people from one of these "For Profit Colleges". They all had degrees in Computer Science and they were at or near the top of their class. The education they got there wasn't even close to someone from a local Tech school with just a 2 year degree. I wouldn't hire any of them. And many of the people who went there and tried to transfer to a more traditional college...the college they tried to transfer to wouldn't accept even one credit from those colleges. They'll accept credit from the 2 year tech schools..but not from those colleges. I can get into specifics of the interview...the education the kids got from those colleges is a complete joke.
Awhile back I was attending a local tech college hoping to get into computer networking. When I started searching for jobs online, most of them wanted someone with 4 to 6 years experience, no less. Which created a catch 22; I couldn’t get a job unless I had 4 to 6 years experience, but I couldn’t get any experience because everyplace was looking for people with no less than 4 to 6 years experience.
After failing my CCNA test a coupe times, plus the effect my early morning shift and evening classes were having on me(6pm class that lasted 2 to 3 hours and having to be at work at 6am the next day), I opted to not go back after semester 5(start of the CCNP classes)
For years and years, since the early 1980’s, I noticed very few kids in the neighborhood were fixing, supe-ing up cars, etc. And very few adults were work on their own cars, even though modern car routine maintenance is faily easy to do for the home mechanic. At least for the popular econo-boxes like many folks drive. In the 1960’s and 70’s, it was quite common to see a neighbor putting in new points or checking the dwell and the timing, doing a minor tune-up and oil change, but after 1980, not so common.
It remains the case in 2012 that I see few adults work on their cars in their garage any more, but I have definitely noticed a trend that the local teenagers are starting to work on their own cars. They seem to be doing thisfor financial reasons. They can’t afford a newer car, possibly they lost their Pell grants and college tuition is very high these days, so to meet their need for transportation, they buy an old junker and fix it up. Some teenagers I notice are even supe-ing them up a bit. Some seem to be doing this in groups, not all by themselves. They’ll all help out one of the group replace the engine say. Like I say, I haven’t seen this is years , but since the 2008 finanicial crisis, I’m seeing it now on my walks around the neighborhood.
Would you want to try and crawl under a newer Civic? COULD you crawl under a new Civic? Without any ramps/jackstands that is.
Cars of yesteryear were made to be worked on because they required more work compared to today’s cars. 10k mile spark plug change, points/distributor/cap needed checked/changed just as often, 1~2k mile oil change, carb would need to be readjusted every so often to keep the idle smooth.
Would you want to change your spark plugs once a year or more, depending on how many miles you put on your car a year? Atleast 6 oil changes per year(going by the 12k mile/yr. avg.), or more.
Concerning the MSN article on the value of business degrees, companies have some gaul to blame business degrees. Back in the 80’s the fast track was to have an accounting degree. Those with just business degrees were left in the dust while the short-term thinking, finance oriented, bean counters took over the board rooms to the delight of the boards. More long term business health oriented business majors fell on deaf ears. Now some years later they want to blame the schools instead of themselves for putting quarterly profits instead of long term health the priority. How silly.
At least where I came from, business majors had coursework in all subjects including math, econ, lit, composition, psych, foreign language, science, and on and on, including of course accounting, management, marketing. Accounting majors did not have basic business course work and of course didn’t think that was important as long as you could read a balance sheet.