I know plenty of graduates of liberal arts colleges who have jobs. Perhaps the ones you know didn’t get good grades or are not properly motivated. Everyone seems to assume liberal arts majors are musicians and performance artists, but I know a lot of pre-med and pre-law liberal arts majors. Not every liberal arts major specializes in disciplines like Spanish or French literature. That is a common misconception. Contrary to popular opinion, a Chemistry or Biology major who graduates form a good liberal arts college has an edge over one who did not graduate with a liberal arts degree when he or she tries to get into graduate school.
An employer who scoffs at a liberal arts degree with a specialization in Chemistry in favor of a non-liberal arts Chemistry degree is woefully ignorant.
You can still get a well rounded education but major in a discipline that will give you a good job. My daughter with her BS in Chemical Engineering from MIT had to take close to 30 hours of humanities.
Another part of this problem is many of our public schools are not preparing kids for advanced study. I sent my kids to private high-schools. Most of the students were far better prepared then the local high-school.
The people you allude to are focused on a long term goal, their liberal arts courses being part of the road road to the goal. They’re not the ones I’m referring to. Perhaps I should have been more specific. The ones I’m referring to are the ones taking liberal arts courses primarily to postpone entering the real world, and accumulating a huge bill while doing so. We, society in general, complicate the problem by emphasizing “a college degree”. We should be emphasizing a goal.
I don’t know about a “philosopher king,” but it seems a significant portion of Americas voters are quite lacking in the knowledge and insight needed to comprehend the issues facing the country and are too easily mesmerized by the media which seems to be promoting the agenda of the far right or far left. No one is supporting good sense. And a basic high school education these days seems to be much less than it was 45 years ago. I worked a full time job while attending high school and struggled to graduate but in conversations with young people I seem to have learned more then and even recall more now than they do soon after graduation. Was my high school English teacher the only one to require memorizing Mark Anthony’s speech? And is it no longer necessary to know and understand the formulas for calculating the volume of a cone, the the hypotenuse of a right triangle? Many locally blame the decline on schools “teaching to the test.” Meaning that because standardized tests are mandated by federal law and looked on as an indication of a successful education the teachers just teach to pick the correct answers and scratch the appropriate square with a #2 pencil. Maybe that’s so. But it’s a shame that 12 years of expensive baby sitting results in so little learning whatever the cause, regardless who is to blame.
I really only know what goes on with my children and their close friends. They are all goal-oriented, and see a college degree as a means to reach their goals. I don’t think that I live in a strange part of America where abnormally good things happen. We’re keen on education, but not as a goal.
It seems to me that a real education (call it a liberal arts education if you like) should prepare a person for many jobs. This education should include a laboratory science, world history, mathematics, English compostion and literature courses, a fine arts course in music or art, a foreign language, and social science and philosophy courses. Mike Wallace some years back visited my campus and spoke in a convocation. A student asked him what preparation was necessary to be an electronic journalist. Mike asked the student about his major. The student replied “Telecommunications”. “Get out of that major”, Mike Wallace replied. “Take literature, history, science, and other courses that will broaden your mind”.
As an undergraduate, I changed my major almost every week. However, we weren’t allowed to declare a major until our third year, so I didn’t fill out any paperwork. I thought about being an English major, psychology major, physics major, music major and finally declared a major in mathematics. I ended my career teaching computer science courses. There was no computer science major at most institutions fifty years ago. I took a couple of courses in computer science after I completed my doctorate because my institution needed people in this field. Some of the best computer science students I had came from music. When I thought about it, it wasn’t really too surprising. In music, one puts notes and rests together to make a measure, puts the measures together to make a phrase, and puts the phrases together for the composition. In computer science, one puts the commands together to make up a procedure and then links the procedures together for the program. The thought process is similar.
My brother earned a doctorate in English and taught at a small state university for a couple of years until he became fed up with the administration. He then worked for a couple of fortune 500 companies as a technical writer. In his technical writing, he thought he should know something about the law. He took a couple of law courses and then earned a law degree and passed the bar exam. He then started working for a law firm where he handled auto insurance and social security cases. When he found that part of the law too depressing, he and a friend bought a plumbing company and he became a plumber. He also is a jazz pianist and has had paying gigs as far as 2500 miles from his home. Now that he is semi-retired, he is teaching as an adjunct in a small college. One of the courses he teaches is sports law. One popular major at this college is sports management. My brother isn’t certain that there are enough jobs with major sports teams or enough atheletic director positions in universities, colleges or even high schools for these students. I think the problem is that when we prepare students too narrowly for a specific occupation, the students may be disenchanted with their education when these jobs don’t exist. There was a book published in January of 2011 titled “Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses”. The authors tested 4000 students at 20 different institutions when they began their college experience and then tested these students two years later. The authors found that these students made limited or no gains in writing skills, analytic reasoning, problem solving skills, etc. In my opinion, it is time to rethink the purpose of a college education.
When I was in high school I didn’t make good grades in most classes with the exception of mathematics classes. Before I finished high school I considered going into the military and took the ASVAB and even though I hadn’t had any mechanical experience that’s the area where I scored the highest, scoring higher than most people who took it. I wasn’t interested in going to college, I just wanted to get out of school and go to work. I still haven’t had any training in mechanics other than what I’ve learned myself through trial and error and what I’ve picked up from reading and watching/helping my dad and friends when I was younger, yet I do nearly all my own automotive and home maintenance/repair projects. I’m living proof that just because a person isn’t the sharpest crayon in the box if he’s interested in mechanics he can do well without lots of other book knowledge on other subjects. During my working career I worked in fields that were of interest to me, dealing with mechanical, building and mathematics. Soon after getting out of high school I went to work for a company as a general laborer, within a couple months I was a machine operator and within about year I was working as a set up person for 5 machines. About 5 years later I left that field and went into construction starting out as a carpenter helper, within a year I’d been promoted to a carpenter and within 2 years was an instrument man on a survey crew, later worked as a carpenter foreman and within about 5 years was a field engineer. Everything was accomplished on hard work and watching and learning from other people. After graduating high school I never went to school another day in my life. I think God gives each person different abilities and if they’re like I was and have trouble learning general book knowledge I think he gives them the ability to be successful in a trade if they will apply themselves.
Expensive education needs to have some purpose use. Some years ago my daughter dated a nice guy who majored in “Peace Studies” and ended up going to England to get a PhD in the subject. All at taxpayer’s expense. I asked him if he was going for a job with the United Nations, but he did not know.
He currently is a credit counselor who helps people manage their money. He also tried to run a small resort hotel on the Cooke Islands in the Pacific.
In some countries, like Germany, mechanics have real status and undergo a rigorous training program. You can’t work on a car unless you have passed these hurdles. Their pay is also very good.
We need to restore the status and prestige of qualified mechanics.
@Docnick–I mentioned my brother in an earlier post who has a Ph.D. in English, a law degree, has been admitted to the bar and now is a plumber. I was with my brother one time when he answered a call for service. The party on the other end asked about the charge for a service call. My brother told him the charge for a service call which included one hour of labor and the hourly rate beyond that. The caller was indignant. “I have a master’s degree and am a manager at XXX company and I don’t make that kind of money”. My brother replied, “I have a Ph.D. in English, a law degree and have practiced law. I have had contracts with your company as a technical writer. I am now a plumber and this is what I charge. You have three choices: 1. you can hire me to do the job; 2. you can call other firms and see if you can get a lower rate; 3. you can do the job yourself. However, you had better make up your mind in 30 seconds, because I have another call coming in”.
When I was younger and my income was a lot less, I had to struggle to do a lot of my own automobile repairs. I have a great deal of respect for the mechanics that do the same job with much less effort and do it better than I can do it. Maybe mechanics would have more prestige if their customers had to do the work themselves.
@FordMan1959, I have relatives and friends from your generation and generations before you who have similar stories. However, being able to make a decent living with only a high school diploma is very rare. Even if a young person today doesn’t want to get a four year college degree, I can’t stress enough the benefits and importance of at least getting a workforce certificate or associate’s degree from a public junior college (NOT a private trade school). An associate’s degree from a junior college is the modern equivalent of a high school diploma from generations past. In fact, these days, it’s possible to get a high school diploma and fail a basic literacy test. To earn an associate’s degree, you must demonstrate at least basic literacy, which is why junior colleges must offer so many remedial courses to prepare their students for English 101.
To bring this all back to the original topic, I willingly pay extra for a smart mechanic to work on my machines, even though letting an idiot work on my car might save me money, and I don’t have a lot of money to spare. Indeed a good mechanic is hard to find, and I’ve dealt with my fair share of stupid tradesmen, but when I find a good one, I am willing to pay extra for the service.
I don’t equate having a college degree as a sign of above average intelligence. A couple of long time friends of mine are actually high school dropouts due to the fact they just flat didn’t like sitting in a classroom. One is currently the shop manager at an electric motor rebuilding facility where he has been for over 30 years and the other is a traveling supervisor for an electrical subcontractor responsible for putting up electricic substations; a job he has also had for over 30 years.
Both of these guys are extremely analytical and very sharp at what they do with both jobs requiring a heavy dose of math. Both have also told me numerous stories about having to deal with college educated dillweeds (their term) who just flat could not comprehend a simple, basic principle.
About 10 or 15 years ago there was a story in the newspaper about the incoming freshmen at Harvard being surveyed to find out if they were truly the best and brightest. While I do not remember most of the questions and the percentages it was staggering to read just how clueless many of them were.
One example was that when given the names of states and asked to pick them out on a blank map of the U.S. about 35% could not do it. Other examples involved 30ish % of them not knowing when the War of 1812 was fought and well into the double digit percentages were the ones who had no idea what the Pythagorean Theorem was.
The next big bubble (and it’s already started actually) is going to be millions of people in default over student loans; much of which these students consider manna from heaven and use to buy cars, video games, and to fund spring break trips with.
With student loans there is no get out of jail free card with the bankruptcy court and many will be saddled with that debt to the day they die.
MikeInNH: Augustana in Sioux Falls. In the latest newsletter: “While the national unemployment rate continues to hover above 8 percent, 97 percent of 2011 Augustana graduates seeking employment have accepted a position related to their major or chosen field”
I agree that because you don’t have a college education doesn’t mean you’re not smart or intelligent. And having a college degree doesn’t mean you are either.
But as a hiring manager…when I hire people who are just entering the field I have to have to rely on some standard to rely on. This may not be the case for most fields. For entry level positions I need a way of weeding down the resumes. If I posted an add on Monster without the college degree requirement I’d be inundated with THOUSANDS of resumes. From my experience…I found that people with college degrees were far more likely able to do the work then people without college degrees. I’m NOT saying that there are people without college degrees who can’t. I’m just saying as a group…the college graduates were better prepared. Not just in knowledge…but in work ethic their ability and willingness to learn.
With that said I’ll hire a person with 5 years of proven experience over a fresh-out with zero experience. But those people are hard to find. If you want to get hired in a technical field…the by going to college is going to make it a lot easier to get hire.
I was used as a spelling checker for an older college student. I didn’t feel sorry for him; I felt sorry for any employer who hired him because he had a degree. When I hear that somebody is going to college to get an education I start to wonder how they missed the last twelve years. How did I get to be a good reader? I tried to be a good student in September in first grade. After that, I worked hard during the last five minutes of every class until I got into high school. Then I switched to working the first five minutes of every class.
All stories aside; if you learn how to do your own work, you’ll get somewhere in life.
The impact of our college situation in general will remain unchanged. The businesses that manufacture technological goods will get most of their important results from people who were trained in other countries. Oh, the impact on auto repair! The excuses for overcharging will use bigger words.
Some years back, a student named Lon Grammer made headlines. Grammer was a student at a community college in California and had a “C” average. He forged transcripts and letters of recommendation and was admitted to Yale. He was within a few weeks of graduation from Yale when his room mate turned him in. Yale was going to sue him for “stealing an education”. I am not certain that big name schools are all that demanding.
I am not certain that big name schools are all that demanding.
That doesn’t prove that Yale isn’t demanding. It just might prove that Lon hadn’t applied himself earlier. It also depends on what type of Major he was working on. And let’s also consider that Mr Grammer has proven skills at forgery. I wonder what other “not so desirable” skills he possessed…Like possibly cheating…buying term papers??? He wouldn’t be the first one or the last.
I think internships are the key. The place I contract at(massive employer) does obviously for college students however they even have a layer back to high school.
They actually hired one of the outstanding high school interns as entry level and are paying for their college course work at UMASS.
My career launched from a internship and I was then hired alongside MIT, Harvard and Dartmouth grads with a state school degree. They were all floored. My in with internship was my neighbor played beach volleyball with hiring manager not my 2.0 GPA.
I worked with a couple colleges years ago in upstate NY that had internships. RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) has a 6-year BS program. One year of the program is internship. The students who graduated from RIT made excellent engineers.
My short effort at getting a college education brought me to the realization that for the most part employers who demanded a degree were looking at the sheepskin as proof that the holder was willing and able to put forth an effort to deal with the demands of a somewhat tyranical, quasi-political hierarchy for 4 years while accomplishing whatever was assigned, regardless how outrageous. I successfully completed a course that required cheating to pass. It seemed that cheating was part of the curriculum.