So I’m in the market for a new car. “New” or actually new. I happen to really like Fords, my grandfather was a chief Ford engineer, it’s what I grew up driving in. The Ford Escape has been my “dream car” for some reason for a long time, but now the Ford C-Max SE Hybrid has caught my eye. It’s wishful thinking considering the sticker price (although I paid more than that for a year of college), but look how pretty it is! Reviews look good, car looks good, is this too good to be true?
Who can explain this car to me? Will be stuck forever with no where to charge my vehicle because society hasn’t caught onto the electric car charging stations yet? Can I charge it with a really long electrical cord running out of my window? Is it worthwhile to buy if I’m only going to run it on a gas until I can live in a place with an electric car charge near buy? I am willing to be that person that shops at Lunds for 3 hours while my car charges… Anyone have pros or cons about this, or any other Hybrid?
As it stands now, recouping your investment from a hybrid is a difficult notion. Just about the time you break even on fuel savings vs hybrid upcharge, you have to replace the batteries, and that puts you deep into the hole again.
I’m much more optimistic about all-electric cars, especially if you couple them to solar charging stations. Now you’re being good to the environment and getting free fuel. Win-win.
As for charging it with a long extension cord, sure, provided the car will accept it - but it’ll take a long time. Better to charge it with a dedicated higher-voltage charger. As for Lunds (Hi, fellow Minnesotan!) if they have charging stations, they’ll probably be the gimicky ones I’ve been seeing spring up around town which basically amount to a normal household 15 amp outlet in a weatherproof box. Good for running Christmas displays, not so much for charging cars unless you want to extend your Lunds visit to a day or two.
There are two C-MAX vehicles, the Hybrid and the Energi (plug in hybrid). The hybrid is a normal hybrid, no charging at any time. The Energi is for those that can plug it in over night, like the Chevy Volt. It still has a gas-powered engine for when the battery is depleted.
Me, I’d only consider the regular hybrid (I have one), much improved mpgs (figure 40 or so, I’m getting 38) for a moderate premium in cost. The Energi costs LOTS more, not worth it in fuel savings to me.
As it stands now, recouping your investment from a hybrid is a difficult notion. Just about the time you break even on fuel savings vs hybrid upcharge, you have to replace the batteries, and that puts you deep into the hole again.
It depends on how many miles you put on yearly. 30k miles annually and you’ll recoop the difference between a non-hybrid and hybrid quickly. Friend has a 09 Civic hybrid. Has about 120k miles…It’s paid for itself already…still on original battery. Battery live expectancy on most of the hybrids is over 10 years. So if you put enough miles per year (20k+)…then it’ll easily pay for itself…even IF you have to buy a new battery.
@shadowfax - The ‘Just about the time you break even on fuel savings vs hybrid upcharge, you have to replace the batteries’ idea is just a myth. A recent Car and Driver article noted:
“While neither Honda nor Toyota would reveal their warranty-replacement statistics, both claim that their battery packs exceeded expectations. Toyota’s product quality and service support manager, Gary Smith, tells us the company has seen many Priuses top 250,000 miles on the original battery pack. Michigan Green Cabs of Ann Arbor, Michigan, has operated 27 Priuses—including one that logged 368,000 miles—without ever replacing a battery pack. Bottom line: What the pioneer hybrids lacked in driving verve they more than made up in longevity.”
"Can I charge it with a really long electrical cord running out of my window? "
If this statement indicates that you live in an apartment, you may want to skip the plug-in vehicles. Your next apartment might not allow long extension cords to be draped out the window. Or it might not have a charging station nearby.
Beyond that, you really need to run some numbers before deciding whether it’s worth it for your kind of driving. It’s tough to make these vehicles pay for themselves.
We’ve been through this a number of times. Hybrids only make sense if you drive a lot and don’t live in a severe climate. Taxi service (or driving 50,000+ miles a year) on the West coast or East Coast halfway between New York and Savannah saves a great deal. The engine has to be running for both heater and A/C use with an hybrid.
A plug-in hybrid is evenmore expensive, and only makes sense if the electric power is cheap such as in the North West.
The only way the pure hybrid pays off is if the government rebates continue, and that is a drain on our economy through the taxes paid to fund the hybrids. Go with the gas powered hybrid and enjoy the benefits of the increased fuel economy.
Hybrids only make sense if you drive a lot and don't live in a sever climate. Taxi service (or driving 50,000+ miles a year) on the West coast or East Coast halfway between New York and Savannah saves a great deal
Do the math…you don’t have to drive even close to 50k miles for a hybrid to be worth it. And hybrids do perfectly well in sever climate.
“The only way the pure hybrid pays off is if the government rebates continue, and that is a drain on our economy through the taxes paid to fund the hybrids.”
@applecreeker - I think you’re referring to the ‘electrical vehicles (EVs)’, not the hybrids, they no longer get fed money.
The types are
Regular gas
Hybrid (gas engine + electric motor(s) + batteries, no plug in)
Plug-in hybrid (Hybrid + bigger battery pack, plug in)
EV (electric motor(s) + even bigger battery pack, plug in)
"While neither Honda nor Toyota would reveal their warranty-replacement statistics, both claim that their battery packs exceeded expectations.
Respectfully, I don’t believe companies that stand to profit from people believing things about their product when they refuse to release actual statistics to back up their claims about that product.
Toyota’s product quality and service support manager, Gary Smith, tells us the company has seen many Priuses top 250,000 miles on the original battery pack.
And Mr. Smith did not say whether or not the original battery pack was still functional, or how much of a charge it held, etc etc.
I’m not saying that you are wrong, I’m only saying that thusfar what we have is industry claims without supportive data.
I looked up the price of a 2012 Prius battery. 2 grand for just the part. How much do you save with the Prius?
Let’s calculate based on $3.50 a gallon.
48 mpg highway average for the Prius
32 for the Matrix, which is similar in size.
2083 gallons for the Prius to go 100,000 miles
3125 for the Matrix
So, $7300 for the Prius, $10,900 for the Matrix
You save $3600 in 100,000 miles.
24 grand for a base no-options Prius, 19 for the Matrix
$3600(savings) - $5000 (price premium for the Prius) = $1,400 in the hole after 100,000 miles.
It’s just not worth it at this point to most people, unless they plan to keep the vehicle far longer than 100,000 miles, and that’s assuming you never have to replace the battery - and if you do, then you’re $3,400 in the hole plus whatever you’re charged in labor to replace the battery pack.
Pretty misleading comparison, highway vs. highway mpgs. We’ve always advised folks driving mostly highway miles to skip the hybrid, if they want to save money. City mpg comparison:
Prius: 51 mpg, 1961 gallons, $6862
Matrix: 25 mpg, 4000 gallons, $14,000
Difference = $7,137, much less than price difference.
As to batteries, we’ve seen nothing in any reports that indicate they’re a problem, the Prius is one of the most reliable cars tracked by Consumer Reports.
And if you want to spend less, get a Prius C, cheaper (and smaller) than the Matrix.
It's just not worth it at this point to most people, unless they plan to keep the vehicle far longer than 100,000 miles
A good number of people here (including myself) keep their vehicles for well past 100k miles…try 300k miles. So for those of us who do…a hybrid is a good choice…even if you have to replace the battery.
As for stats on the battery…reason is…they don’t replace many at all. The dealers don’t keep it in stock because they rarely replace it. I know 3 people who have hybrids that are 5+ years old…all over 100k miles…and no one has replaced the battery yet.
Then look at the maintenance of the Civic hybrid and the Prius…Both have outstanding reliability ratings…so if you do have to put a little money in for a battery every 200k miles…it’ll probably far less then you put in many other vehicles on just maintenance for the same period.
Lunds? You a Minneapolis boy? Ask about heat in the winter. I really don’t know anything about them except I don’t buy futures so buy what fits your needs now and in the next few years. If you do a huge amount of city driving maybe, but otherwise, its hard to beat 30 plus miles on the highway or 25 in town, with conventional engineering. Remember you can always trade in the future if you want or need something else.
@texases Not really all that misleading when you consider that you probably won’t actually get 51mpg around town. We had a fleet of them at work, and we never got anywhere close, even when we used eco mode, which was so slow that I thought I was gonna be hit by oncoming traffic when I turned left a few times, even though I started with more than enough room for a normal car to get across safely. And small wonder - if you put it in EV mode, it disengages that mode at more than half throttle or more than 20 or so mph. The electric motor in that thing is not very strong, and the battery does not last very long driving purely EV - which translates into “It’s not doing all that much except getting the same advertised (and lower real-life) mileage as a 1988 CRX HF while being slower and having exotic technology that the CRX didn’t need.”
Then look at the maintenance of the Civic hybrid and the Prius....Both have outstanding reliability ratings..so if you do have to put a little money in for a battery every 200k miles...it'll probably far less then you put in many other vehicles on just maintenance for the same period.
That’s why I compared it with another Toyota. I wasn’t going for an unfair comparison against something that would require gobs of repairs.
My brother is averaging 50 mpg lifetime with his. I’m at 38 with my MKZ. If your folks didn’t get around 50 it’s likely because they weren’t dring them full time. It takes a while to get used to the best techniques.
And the folks reporting to the EPA web site are averaging 49 mpg for 2010 - 2012. So yes 50 mpg is a good estimate.
Oh a CRX? The driving safety equivent of an aluminum can? OK…
Also it’s worth considering that charging one of these with an extension cord out the window is not particularly safe, unless it’s a very hefty cord and plugged into a dedicated circuit. To charge a plug-in hybrid in a reasonable amount of time takes a LOT of current, kind of the same as if you were running any high-draw appliance like a heater or hair dryer on a long extension cord. With a dinky cord and/or an old, loose outlet, it will tend to heat up and there is the possibility of fire.
If you do get a hybrid, probably a plug-in is not a good fit for your situation unless you can cajole your landlord to installing or letting you install an outlet in your carport or similar.
I’m not a big Ford fan myself, but a coworker got a C-Max about 5 months ago and seems to really like it. It’s a pretty new model and hard to tell what the reliability will be like. He’s had no problems but obviously hasn’t had it long either.
@texases No need to be snippy. And you’re flat out wrong about the safety of a CRX. Just because something isn’t a 3000 pound rolling fortress doesn’t mean it’s not safe. I’ve had 4, and I have yet to be killed in any of them.
@shadowfax Your calculations make sense. A prius only makes sense if you keep it a long time or drive a lot. I could never make the figures work for me since I don’t drive enough and the car would die of old age before it would pay for itself. It has to be compared to a compact sedan with a 4 cylinder engine to be fair.
I use the heater 6 months of the year and the A/C for 3 months.
@shadowfax - not sure how I was being ‘snippy’, just pointing out facts. As for the CRX, they were great, fun, cars, but any 1800 lb car from that era is going to be less safe than the cars we’re discussing. I drove an '83 GTI for 12 years. I’m alive, but that has nothing to do with whether the '83 was ‘safe’. Not compared to current cars, it wasn’t. I wouldn’t want to be in either the CRX or that GTI in a side collision.