But we digress…
I’ve seen one municipality install a gentle ess curve in a popular street racing locale. If you were traveling at the speed limit, no problem. Any faster, you had to slow down, or risk leaving the pavement.
“Society can NOT and would not afford to scholastically help the average student like me . . .”
@dagosa–I disagree. Society can and must help the “average” student like you (except that I think you are selling yourself short and are way above average).
For the past 12 years, I have been engaged in research with a former colleague who is now at another institution trying to find the reason why some college freshmen students are successful in freshmen mathematics courses and other students are not. We took freshmen enrolled in the general studies math course and freshmen enrolled in calculus. We considered a student who earned an A as outstanding, B or C as successful, and D or F as not successful. We had data over a 10 year period for students at a mid-sized public university and at a private liberal arts college. What was interesting to us was that the female students had lower SAT math scores, but were more apt to be in the outstanding or successful category. We grouped the students as to high school size using the same criteria as our state’s athletic association uses for classifying high schools. What we found interesting was that students from the smallest high school size classification had the lowest SAT mathematics scores, but were more likely to be successful in the college mathematics classes. We have given conference papers and have published these results.
What we think is making the difference is the student’s perception of himself or herself as to what he or she can achieve. You had someone who believed in you and therefore you believed you could do it, worked at it, and did become successful. Right now, my former colleague and I are working to devise a scale where we can try to measure how much a student believes that he or she can be successful.
For those interested, for once there was a pretty good educational article in Time magazine this week. Some new approaches in the inner city concentrating on STEM and sponsored by IBM and others. Its new but they are having some good results for kids that otherwise were unmotivated and would fall through the cracks, and when they finish in six years with an AA, they are guaranteed a 40K job to start. I’m all for anything that actually works, instead of all this sillyness about wearing helmets as indicated in the above California questionaire.
@db4690, I have a frien that lived in Gardena when her daughter was in high school. She managed to get her into El Segundo HS because my friend worked in El Segundo and had to get her daughter to gymnastics after work. The ploy worked. I wouldn’t call it trumped up because everything is true, but I’d my friend left early, she could have gotten home and picked her daughter up. But the main thing was to get into ESHS.
Society can NOT and would not afford to scholastically help the average student like me
Are you Kidding? There’s a LOT of financial aid available…and I mean a LOT. My daughter is finally out of graduate school…my middle son is in college…and my youngest will be in college in a year. With my wife’s and mine combined income (which is pretty good) have qualified for some financial aid for my middle son. And we are expected to get some financial aid for my youngest when he enters college. Good friend of my son who’s parents are just making it financially…their son was a little above average student…and received a lot of financial aid. There are a lot of financial aid programs out there.
And then there’s colleges like Harvard and Dartmouth. If you get academically accepted to those colleges and your parents income is less then $65k/year…then tuition is FREE. From $65k to $150k the tuition is from 0% up to 10% of their income. Plus students may receive travel expenses to keep in touch with home. 60% of students at Harvard are on some type of tuition assistance.
If you want to go to college there are ways to do it. College is NOT out of reach for anyone who wants to go.
“If you want to go to college there are ways to do it. College is NOT out of reach for anyone who wants to go.”
As a retired school counselor who spent about 60% of every workday on college admissions-related issues, I am going to respectfully disagree with you. The rate of tuition inflation has been truly astronomical over the past decade, at the same time as Congress has cut funding for Pell Grants, which form the bulk of financial aid for truly needy students. Thus, the gap between the total cost of college and the available aid for needy students has widened to an incredible extent.
Yes, the very well-endowed Ivy League colleges and other prestigious private institutions are extremely generous with aid for the students whom they admit, but the vast majority of students do not qualify academically for those schools. For the huge group of middle-class and lower-class students who rely on the traditionally low-cost state colleges and community colleges, what was once within their reach is–in many cases–no longer w/in their reach.
You don’t have to start out at a 4-year college. Nor do you have to start out as a full time student.
There’s also the Military option for college tuition reimbursement.
Yes…Pell Grands have been cut…But they were NOT the only option. There are state schools who’s tuition is far less the most of the private schools (at least in most states).
Last year I hired a guy who just graduated from college with a Degree in Computer Science. He was 25. Went to school part time. Took 1-2 classes a semester while he worked full time. When he graduated he had no college debt.
The problem with your reasoning, Mike, is that financial aid is rarely if ever available to part-time students. And, the tuition at 2 year colleges has risen far faster than the overall rate of inflation over the past decade, while Pell Grants have not kept pace. Ergo, a gap that can be hard to fill.
Of course most state universities have tuition that is far lower than that of private schools. But, if a student can only qualify for…let’s say…$3k in aid, and the total cost for tuition, meals, housing, books, etc. exceeds $14k per year for a commuter, and exceeds $25k per year for a resident student, that state university may still be out of reach for him/her.
Because of the increasing gap between available aid and college costs, increasing numbers of students have had to saddle themselves with an increasing amount of debt, via student loans. If college was still really affordable, why would so many more students have put themselves into debt in this way over the past decade?
Take a look at these statistics:
I wouldn’t think to question your experience & expertise in the field of computer science, but likewise, I don’t think that you should question my real-world experience & expertise in working with–literally–thousands of students over the years. Your experience with students and their financial situation vis-a-vis college is likely to be somewhat more limited than the thousands of situations with which I am familiar.
The problem with your reasoning, Mike, is that financial aid is rarely if ever available to part-time students.
Sure it is. Many colleges that have continuing education systems also have financial aids. But there are many kids going to college right now as part time students and full time workers…paying for their education themselves. They may have to live at home with their parents to keep costs down…but it’s possible. My nephew is doing that right now. He’s working 30 hours a week as cook at a restaurant. And attending a community college in NY part time (OCC). Tuition is $164 credit hour. Most classes are 3 or 4 credit hours - which equates to $500 to $700 per class. He even gets some financial aid (not sure how much). It may take him 6 or 7 years to graduate…but it is possible.
I wouldn't think to question your experience & expertise in the field of computer science, but likewise, I don't think that you should question my real-world experience & expertise in working with--literally--thousands of students over the years.
I also have real-world experience - putting 2 kids through college and another one who’ll be starting next year. Plus I have several Nieces and Nephews in college right now. Because of our income we don’t qualify for much financial aid…but there is money available. My daughter had a full ride at MIT, so that was different. My middle son is now at his 3rd college after realizing that baseball was not in his future. And I was able to secure some financial aid for him while now finishing up at my Alma Mater - Syracuse University.
I’m not saying it’s easy…but it is POSSIBLE. College tuition has sky rocketed in the past 20 years…I know that. Financial aid has diminished…I know that too. But it hasn’t dried up completely.
Student loans are another possibility…although with interest rates for them now…it’ll be a huge burden on the student to pay back unless they have a real good job when they graduate.
I’m NOT saying it’s possible for everyone. You have to have the right situation and live in the right area. It would have been very difficult for me to do it in the town I grew up in. You also have to have the right home situation. My nephew’s parents are very supportive. He still lives at home with them…and pays them some money for room and board…and still has enough money left over to pay for his college and go out on the weekends.
@OK,have to agree about the schools meddling,weinies are the bane of society,till people can quit passing the buck and man up,things that should have died a quiet death,will assume a cancerous life all thier own.Something similar happened to me as a result of the schools weakness and my daughter got to finish way early,but when I was in the joint Her mother didnt make her seize the advantage she had.So if you ask me about private schools,I heartily endorse them,to much power rests in the public sector,that little California entrance questionnaire,has me saying,WTF?-Kevin
“Then there are colleges like Dartmouth and Yale"
That’s exactly what I expected for a reply. There is Bowden College too. There are all the Ivy league schools. That as response has absolutly no bearing on what really happens for students who make up the vast majority of average performers without financial backing or the highest academic achievement.
Some one has to " buy a house” to pay a child’s tuition. Those who can’t, cannot afford to send their child through college. The difference between our kids going to school and and not, is two full time professionals working full time, day in and day out. Many kids don’t have that advantage. Sorry, you’re living in a world that does not exist for many. And, when they don’t, their aspirations are lowered. Not only is it not possible for many, it’s not possible for MOST.
Mike, you make some points then in your last paragraph, you apply sum up what generally happens with most students with average ability living outside an advantaged situation. After…" I’m not saying it’s possible for everyone…" you realistically sum what it’s like for most.
I guess we’ve decided higher education is the key to stopping drag racing on Lisa Mae’s street?
Seriously, this is getting out of hand.
@VDCdriver–I agree with you about the rise in tuition at state schools. When a student of modest means sees the tuition for a year, the student is often frightened away from going to college.
There is no excuse for the tuition far outstripping the rate of inflation. Faculty salaries in many cases haven’t kept up with the rate of inflation. Over my 44 years of employment at a faculty member at a state university, I watched an administration grow exponentially. Yet, while student enrollment increased, faculty positions decreased. At one point in time, at the university where I taught, there was a concern that enrollment might decrease The administrator who was second in command, announced at a faculty meeting, that there might be some cuts in faculty if enrollment went down. One of my colleagues then asked this administrator about whether on not if faculty members were eliminated, would we see a reduction in the number of administrators. The administrator answers was “No! With all the problems brought on by decreasing enrollment, we may need more administrators to solve the problems”.
I once applied for an administrative position. After I investigated what the job entailed, I realized that I would be bored out of my mind, so I withdrew my application. I received a call from one of the “higher ups” to reconsider. I declined. It turned out to be a big mistake monetarily, but for self satisfaction, I was glad I remained in teaching.
One warning. If you have a son who wants to go to college, have him go into a business which hires that degree. If there are virtually no men in there, he had better change degrees. Not everyone fully understands the consequences of what is called Affirmative Action.
There has been considerable discussion on boards frequented by men. Instead of high debt for college, clever young men can do much better by going to trade school and becoming heating and cooling technician, with their own business. There is something really nice about billing a college professor hundreds of dollars for a few hours work. Heh, heh.
@Whitey in all seriousness, I don’t think problems like this and educational opportunities are totally unrelated.,
I doubt that many of these drag racers in this particular situation have a degree beyound highschool. If these people had aspirations for a better future that included an affordable education, it would go far to develope a sense of self worth in themselves as well as empathy for those they are obviously making life difficult for. A better educated populace does much to solve many of societies problems.
How to stop drag racing on my street?
Refrigerator box (or something similar) flat grey paint, make your own “real” looking fake speed camera.
You can get the state police to set a speed monitor on the site sometimes,it doesnt give tickets but gets the point across-Kevin
In Maryland, in state tuition is around $10,000 per year. While not huge, I still think that is a lot of money, especially for low and middle income families. One popular solution here is to go to community college for the first 2 years and then move on to the university system. Since MD is a small state, there is usually a state university close to home and students can live at home, reducing the cost by about half. Community college tuition is much less than university tuition.
There wasn’t much available back in the 60’s. The only help I got was a $50 paper company scholarship. The rest was at $1.65 an hour plus I had a good banker. I worked and saved in high school, worked in the off times, and the bank took care of the rest. There was the student loan program though that defered payments to te bank until you were out, which was nice. And I went to a private school not a state school which would have been about half the cost. But then I would have married someone else I suppose too.
So I understand the cost is going up but still, it can be done if that is your long term goal. And it can be done without all the grants and so on, I do I do believe.