It all boils down to common sense and respect for others on the road.
Yosemite
“It is common to occupy the box in WI, MA and NH while awaiting a left turn. If you sat behind the line in MA, you’d never turn.”
Exactly true in NJ and–more than likely–in other congested states also.
On all-too-many occasions, I have had the misfortune to be behind someone (I won’t identify the gender, but you can probably guess) who sat behind the stop line while awaiting a space to turn–which never came.
On one occasion, I was second in line behind somebody like this for three traffic light cycles before she (whoops! I identified the gender!) found enough space to make her turn during the fourth green light cycle. By that time, the traffic jam that she had created in the left turn lane wound up blocking both lanes of traffic.
I’ve turned left exactly the same way as @chicago ben for 40 years in Ohio as does everyone else. The law reads “clear the intersection” but rarely can 2 cars slide through given the space. I see it done here in Florida but left turn lanes usually have their own light. I don’t know if it is legal in Florida but I see lots of illegal stuff done driving here every day.
“It all boils down to common sense and respect for others …”
… as with so many things in life!
Back in high school a friend’s dad told me “common sense is very uncommon”. Truer words…
ONE car can finish making their left turn .
You’re not running the west bound light…you’re first in line for the south bound green.
IF
If you are out there in the middle waiting.
Two cars making it through is just playing against the usual reaction times of the opposing traffic…not legal though , and many do that on the way to school in the am. The west bound left turn lane has about a dozen cars in it as well as school busses . We’ll see many frustrated lefty waiters cram the tail end of the cycles.
But what’s worse is all of those who could have and SHOULD have taken that last turn…to shorten the line behind them, but were caught behind the line causing a delay of at least two cars for each subsequent change of the light !
( Traffic jams start at the front of the line )
If you enter the intersection under the green with the reasonable expectation that you will be able to complete the turn, then it is legal to complete the turn under the red. In multilane road intersections, two cars might fit over the line.
If traffic is at a crawl, it is not considered reasonable that you can complete the turn before the light changes and whether you are turning or going straight, if traffic is going very slow, it is not reasonable that you will clear the intersection so you cannot enter.
But around here, you have one other consideration, two the three vehicles going straight through will run the red light, and I mean enter the intersection under the red.
Sometimes I just make three right turns instead of a left.
B.L.E. My wife and I have been doing the 3 right turn thing for years. We avoid left turns as much as possible. If the 3 right turn is not possible we will go past the intersection and find a safe place to turn around so we can make a right turn at the intersection.
@ VOLVO V70 I will go past the road or driveway where I want to turn left and wait on the right shoulder for a safe opportunity to make a U-turn and come back rather than wait in the left lane of a 4-lane highway to make a left against a seemingly endless stream of on- coming traffic while cars pass me on the right going 70 mph as I sit there with my turn signal on waiting for an opportunity to turn left.
Also, on a freeway on-ramp, if I’m behind a car that comes to a complete stop waiting for an opening in the traffic instead of merging, I will take the shoulder and go around him rather than be a sitting duck behind him, I don’t care how many white lines I have to drive over.
That technique is common in Colorado but not here in California. I think you might get a ticket if you did it here. I guess it varies state to state. Don’t know why exactly, but maybe one reason, in urban areas of Calif there are very few lighted intersections which don’t have separate time slots in the sequence for left turns w/illuminated arrows. If fact I can’t think of a single one in my area. They were very common in Colorado.
Another interesting difference in driving rules between the two states, it was illegal to make a U-turn at a lighted intersection in Colorado, unless there was a sign that specifically allowed it. In Calif, just the opposite.
If you enter the intersection under the green with the reasonable expectation that you will be able to complete the turn, then it is legal to complete the turn under the red. In multilane road intersections, two cars might fit over the line.If traffic is at a crawl, it is not considered reasonable that you can complete the turn before the light changes…so you cannot enter.
Wait…you’re saying that you can be cited for a late left, IF and ONLY IF it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew (or should have known) you would be unable to make it prior to the light turning red?!? I cannot imagine a means–short of telepathic technologies yet to be invented–to know a driver’s state of mind, leaving this essentially unenforceable. Even if the intersection is a busy one, an defense could be “I had a hunch I’d get lucky this time,” “I didn’t realize how busy it is there at that time of day,” or any one of a thousand other impossible-to-disprove alibis.
This reminds me when the FAA allowed “heavy” ultralights to carry two passengers (contrary to UL regs) “For the purposes of educational instruction ONLY.” I laughed and said it translates to: “If I take you flying…you damn well better LEARN something!” Again–the FAA inspector cites the operator: “I know FOR A FACT your passenger didn’t learn ANYTHING!”
Again, essentially unenforcable.
For what it’s worth, I’m from New Zealand and we do the same thing (except for right turns obviously, since we drive on the left). At rush hour, a right turn lane with no dedicated arrow would-not-move for 2 hours or more if you didn’t do this.
I’m in Canada now, and me and all the cars in front of me do it here too ^^.
In congested areas doing that risks blocking the intersection if you aren’t able to complete the turn (because of backed-up traffic.) I have seen people cited for here in San Francisco in downtown areas where drivers were routinely blocking intersections. It’s also potentially hazardous to pedestrians who expect to cross the street when the light changes. Drivers finishing left turns after the signal changes often come uncomfortably close to pedestrians. I see this all the time at a wide intersection near me.
In what states would it be illegal to pull into an intersection to make a left turn and wait for the light to turn? I don’t mean the second car - the first one (assuming a left turn would otherwise be legal.)
Wait…you’re saying that you can be cited for a late left, IF and ONLY IF it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew (or should have known) you would be unable to make it prior to the light turning red?!? I cannot imagine a means–short of telepathic technologies yet to be invented–to know a driver’s state of mind, leaving this essentially unenforceable. Even if the intersection is a busy one, an defense could be “I had a hunch I’d get lucky this time,” “I didn’t realize how busy it is there at that time of day,” or any one of a thousand other impossible-to-disprove alibis.
I think the standard of proof for traffic tickets as well as accidents is “preponderance of evidence”, not “beyond reasonable doubt”. Translation, five out of six or ten out of twelve jurors must agree with the verdict.
“Beyond reasonable doubt” requires a unanimous jury.
Also, “alibi” is not a synonym for “excuse”.
Green lights do not give drivers an unconditional right of way. They still have the onus to make sure it is actually safe to enter the intersection before doing so.
'I think the standard of proof for traffic tickets as well as accidents is “preponderance of evidence”, not “beyond reasonable doubt”. Translation, five out of six or ten out of twelve jurors must agree with the verdict. “Beyond reasonable doubt” requires a unanimous jury."
There is some misinformation here!
First, I am not aware of traffic tickets being adjudicated before a jury.
In every venue with which I am familiar, only a judge is involved in the verdict of guilty or not guilty regarding traffic tickets.
That being said, in a Civil Trial (which includes most accident cases), the standard by which guilt is evaluated by a jury is “By a preponderance of the evidence”. In other words, the party that has the stronger evidence–even if it is stronger by just a tiny amount–is considered to have proven his/her case. In Civil Trials, a majority or the jurors must agree on the verdict, but this is totally separate from the concept of “By a preponderance of the evidence”.
In a Criminal Trial, the standard by which guilt is evaluated by a jury is “Beyond a reasonable doubt”. Because of the potentially serious consequences of a criminal conviction, this means that–even if there is considerable likelihood that the accused committed the crime–if there is any “fair or reasonable doubt” about his/her guilt, the verdict should be “not guilty”. This is why a wily defense attorney doesn’t have to prove that his defendant is not guilty. He only needs to introduce enough indecision about guilt so as to make it difficult to believe in guilt “Beyond a reasonable doubt”. In every venue with which I am familiar, a criminal conviction requires a unanimous jury–unlike in a civil case–but this is totally separate from the concept of “Beyond a reasonable doubt”.
The standard of proof in civil vs criminal cases should not be confused with how many jurors must agree on the verdict.
Too many posters gave their opinions without telling what state they are talking about. That is not helpful.
Here in NY state you may enter the intersection on the green or yellow light to make a left turn, You may not enter the intersection to go straight ahead unless there is room ahead of you to get all the way through the intersection so as not to block traffic.
During an annual road test for school bus drivers I was marked off for not entering the intersection to make a left turn, I explained to the tester that at this particular light the oncoming traffic in the northbound lane got the green light before the southbound lane and kept the green light after the southbound turned red. I discovered this after I almost got hit trying to complete my turn.
After much discussion with our schools transportation dept. and the state D.O.T. it was decided that our bus routes would be designed so we didn’t have to turn left there. There was a bridge straight ahead then another light and the state D.O.T, was under a mandate to not stop traffic on the bridge.
@VDCdriver Yes, most tickets are adjudicated by a judge, but in Texas at least, a person has a constitutional right to demand a jury trial.
I have had the privilege of sitting on three civil juries so far and in Texas, the standard has been 10 of 12 or 5 of 6 jurors agreeing with all points of the verdict in a civil case. You can’t have 10 people agreeing on one point of the verdict and a different 10 people agreeing on a second point of the verdict.
It was definitely a learning experience and I now know what terms like “proximate cause” and “constructive discharge” mean.
I live in California
Now go back and read my comments
LOL