Higher Gas prices = Better Drivers? I hope gas goes up

General Discussion
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What is an alcoholic attitude? Why do I use the term so much?

Why do I always refer to people having alcoholic attitudes? Do I think everyones an alcoholic?

No, not everyone is an alcoholic. Many people exhibit the same attitudes as alcoholic or other chemically dependent people do without ever having a drop of alcohol or drugs,

Alcoholic Attitude- Superiority or grandiosity basically means a return to a self-centered, ‘the world revolves around’ me attitude. Chemically dependent people are self centered in the extreme. The key component here is that with grandiosity you are setting yourself up to be the center of attention, either superior to everyone around you, or by playing the victim. Either way, you’re separating yourself and putting distance between yourself and from the people and world around you. You’re really saying I am not like you; the implication is that I am unique and rules don’t apply to me.

IE- If your speeding, say going 68mph in a 55mph zone and you come up to me and im going 55mph, the common speeder will act like a victim, they are a victim of me holding them up. They can’t just slow down and realize im doing the speed limit for a reason, they ride my bumper which is also against the law and then at the first possible opportunity blow by me causing the oncoming car to slow down and almost causing a head on wreck. If there was a wreck then it would be my fault in their mind because I made them pass me because I was driving slow, only going the speed limit.

See the parallels between the alcoholic way of thinking and the speeder way of thinking?

But Rick, How do you figure a speeder has an alcoholic attitude?

“Possibly one of the most common attitudes or observable behaviors of people with addiction problems is poor impulse control and impatience. We tend to do what we want, when we want, with little regard for self harm or hurting others around us. Impulsivity can be linked with grandiosity to engage in behaviors designed to make us the center of attention. Another common feature of impulsivity and lack patience has to do with time frames. We want and expect things to happen within our own time frame. Unfortunately, the time frame we impose on ourselves and others is often quite unrealistic. We expect instant gratification in all areas of our lives. Let’s face it drugs and alcohol work almost instantly, we have conditioned ourselves like Pavlov’s dog, to expect immediate rewards.”

Hmmm… Sound familiar?

The reckless speeder says “get out of my way”, “quit holding me up!” " I know better than the law!"

They believe where they are going is much more important than where everyone else is going. They do not care I have a precious child in the car or I care about laws and fuel economy or the fact if I get a ticket as a CDL holder I can lose my job.

Then when they have a wreck they blame road conditions, other drivers, act of God Ect…

Its never their fault. Just like alcoholics.

Here is an example of an alcoholic attitude from back to the future, biff wrecks georges car after he loans it to him, but its georges fault.

Biff: I can’t believe you loaned me a car, without telling me it had a
blindspot. I could’ve been killed.

George: Now, now, Biff, now, I never noticed any blindspot before when I
would drive it.

Biff: But, what are you blind McFly, it’s there. How else do you explain
that wreck out there?

George: Now, Biff, um, can I assume that your insurance is gonna pay for
the damage?

Biff: My insurance, it’s your car, your insurance should pay for it.
Hey, I wanna know who’s gonna pay for this? I spilled beer all over it when that car smashed
into me. Who’s gonna pay my cleaning bill?

George: Uh?

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I like you rick, and hope I didn t hurt your feelings.

your alchoholic logic is wacky tho. we re all wacky in our own way and I believe you mean well no matter how misguided you are. :slight_smile:

your thinking that we can have a life and economy wrecking fuel increase, while your life remains rich and happy as you cheerfully wave to the other prius owners is wacky too.

I have those utopian fantasies too. a simpler life, more local, with gardens and bicycles and home churned butter sounds great and is my dream but the sad truth is that the way there is likely to be filled with misery

83

Personally I’m starting to think that the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory test should be done for anyone wanting a CDL. The roads would be safer. Its done wonders for weeding out bully police and could do the same for evangelist CDL holders. I rest my case.

84
I like you rick, and hope I didn t hurt your feelings.

your alchoholic logic is wacky tho. we re all wacky in our own way and I believe you mean well no matter how misguided you are. :slight_smile:

your thinking that we can have a life and economy wrecking fuel increase, while your life remains rich and happy as you cheerfully wave to the other prius owners is wacky too.

@‌ wesw

I like you too as well, you seem like a good person as do 99% of the people here on this board. (Probably more like 99.9999 percent but hey, theres always at least ONE bad apple right?)

No sir, you did not hurt my feelings, I love having discussions such as this one, no one can agree on everything, if they did the world would be a dangerous place. I agree with much of what you say, I never meant to insult anyone here, I think some people take me too seriously. I mean what I say, but I admit I am wrong on alot of things, I am very stubborn.

I feel there is so much knowledge on these boards its amazing, smart, sane, crazy, idealistic people, we have them all. I like everyone here, I hope I haven’t offended anyone.

I guess i really didn’t think the whole idea thru, I just threw it out there without thinking it thru.

My alcoholic attitude analogy come from the fact I fancy myself as an armature psychologist, I figure its a bit wacky but it makes sense to me.

I admit I have some off the wall ideas, I just thought it would be great if gas got so expensive that only Priuses would be on the road, but I realize that would not be a nice thing and I was wrong for wishing that.

I do feel people should do a little better to obey the rules of the road. Its bad around here.

85

Well the most important principle in psychology, or business, or economics, or politics, or religion, etc. is that people do things to promote their own self interest-whatever that may be. Threaten their own personal or family interests and they will attack with vengence. The other is fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So when you look at why people do things that may not seem logical from a business or economic standpoint, you find people taking steps to protect themselves from perceived or real threats.

86
It also means people in on ramps now have to accelerate much quicker then their cars are capable of to keep from getting run over.

There’s people out there that, even if they had 5 miles of a straight on ramp to the freeway, wouldn’t try to match the speed of the freeway drivers until they’re a few miles past the on ramp.
i.e. Straight entrance ramp to the freeway with a 65mph speed limit, person decides 40~45 is fast enough to enter the freeway THEN speeds up…eventually…I think; I usually go around them first chance I get, even if it’s to hop over into the lane early so I can get up to speed faster.

I’ve had several conversations with my mom if we go somewhere that I have to get on a major highway/freeway. The speed limit is 65~70, depending on which interstate you’re on. She, somehow, pays attention to how fast I’m going while I’m driving(maybe it gets her mind off what’s going on on the road, I dunno). She’ll tell me I’m going to fast, which might actually be the speed limit, or 5 above. I’ll tell her what the speed limit is, and she’ll tell me that that’s fast enough. I’ll tell her that even doing the speed limit I’d get ran over, and that it’s the law of the jungle on these roads; you either keep up, or you get ran over.
She’ll never drive those roads, but I imagine if she had to, she’d be white knuckling it the whole way in the right lane while semi trucks are passing her and honking at her for going slow.

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WheresRick
…I fancy myself as an armature psychologist…

Just when I was begining to think of you as a generator psychiatrist…

88

@wheresrick Having done too many years in physiological psychology attempting to eliminate the effects of morphine withdrawal by blocking non pain relief receptors, and able to eliminate 6 of the 13 symptoms of morphine withdrawal in rats and provide pain relief with a combination of drugs, such as naloxone I feel somewhat qualified to say if you think there is a definition that defines ~ “Alcoholic Attitude- Superiority or grandiosity basically means a return to a self-centered, ‘the world revolves around’ me attitude. Chemically dependent people are self centered in the extreme.” You are wrong. Many are so filled with self doubt and depression because of their situation your definition does not apply. Many are functional without the conditions you describe non existent. You are wrong to make such an accusation. There were many definitions of alcoholic when I was in college, ranging from having more than 3 drinks in one night more than 3 times a year to one that could not go more than 72 hours without alcohol before withdrawal symptoms set in.

I feel conflicted I can get pulled over by a guy riding a motorcycle and given a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.

I think the start of the grand recession was the high gas prices, the commuters in really expensive houses could not afford the commute after gas went to $4.50 and buy as much house as you can mortgage payment, one paycheck away from disaster was the beginning of the bursting of the house bubble, which led to the bank implosion which led to austerity measures, cutting of funding for social programs etc etc.

89

I sort of agree with Rick about the alcoholic business,a lot of Guys in Prison have those quirks,being a person with an addictive personality,I have to watch myself,not wanting to Lord over other people,because of what “I” want,try as I may to be altruistic,I find it sadly lacking in others(thats from observation,not nearsighted judgement)-Kevin

90
Having done too many years in physiological psychology attempting to eliminate the effects of morphine withdrawal by blocking non pain relief receptors, and able to eliminate 6 of the 13 symptoms of morphine withdrawal in rats and provide pain relief with a combination of drugs, such as naloxone

Wait–you relieved addiction and gave pain relief, in addicted rats, with noloxone? Narcan? I always thought giving any living thing, habituated to opiates, noloxone, or any other antagonist is a sure-fire recepie for inducing precipiatated withdrawal of sufficient severity to tear holes in the space-time continum! Heck, even giving addicts buprenorphine (suboxone) substitution–a partial agonist–requires 24 hours of withdrawal to make sure the patient will not be immediately plunged into horrifying withdrawals.

Did you mistake one chemical for another, or is there something to this? PM me if this isn’t a typo…probably no longer possible to pursue this particular wrinkle here. (Too bad; it’s an interesting subject…)

Also, I tend to agree with WR that addicts are self-centered, of necessity, if nothing else. I think Maslow’s “heirarchy of needs” is overhyped, but as long as one is addicted to an expensive substance, sporadically available, they spend far too much time on securing base necessities to be able to advance to worrying about empathy towards others, even if they are “wired that way.” They may try to do their best, but they can not. This is probably also true of famine victims, etc…self-centered out of concession to reality.

91

Oh, boy. Barkydog, did you mean naltrexone? Not speaking as your forum lackey, this is one of my favorite subjects, close to my professional heart, but speaking as your forum lackey, I would second @meanjoe75fan‌ 's suggestion that this is a discussion that should go to PM.

92

Sorry, not to drift. I don’t know much about addiction but Maslow’s was really more a theory for motivation and works well for that. In other words, you can’t motivate $200K MDs by offering more financial incentives but you can by offering more opportunities for self-actualization. Naturally they would still be motivated some by financial incentives but more for the reason of being recognized for their contribution than needing to buy more things, but then I drift.

93

@WheresRick‌
You certainly have a right to be passionate about the your points of view. If in general, any one takes offense at your opinions, the ones you own, that’s their problem. I get what you are saying about "alcoholics attitude " especially as it relates to speeding. Can tell you how many times during discussions about speed, there have been those who feel they are safe driving 80 mph in the left lane and anyone else has a duty to watch out for “them” and it’s the slower driver who is creating the problem.

94

When it comes to chemical addiction, I think it is wrong to pigeon-hole a group of diverse people into a single personality type. I’ve known functioning addicts/alcoholics who had the good sense to call a taxi, never missed a day of work, and never missed a bill payment. I’ve also known addicts/alcoholics who were self-destructive and reckless, would steal from their own family members, and would rather get their fix than keep a roof over their heads. Then there is the fact that they often display different behaviors depending on what they’re using and how long ago they’ve used. Sometimes they’re in a cycle of self-loathing and guilt for what they do to their loved ones, and sometimes all they can think about is their next fix.

Anyway, my point is that if anyone thinks they can describe addictive behavior in a single pithy statement is oversimplifying people to such a degree that it kind of dehumanizes them. Let’s not forget we’re talking about people here, and I’d like to do so in a way that acknowledges respect for whatever dignity they might have.

95

Getting back to the freeway onramps . . .

My current car has significantly more power than my last car

I actually feel safer merging onto the freeway, because I can reach freeway speeds on the ramp, which means nobody has to slow down or pass me when I do enter the freeway

96

@cdaquila http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone I think the thread is worth keeping open.

97

I agree with Barky that the thread is worth keeping open. This is a serious issue that in truth affects every aspect of our lives and is well worth the discussion.

I have to admit that Rick’s philosophies in this area drive me nuts, but I support his right to express them… although I realize one would not think so from my initial response. I just get tired of hearing the constant “save the earth no matter the suffering it causes the people” choruses, generally sung by people who would not suffer from the consequences of what they propose.

I also offer Rick my sincere apology for having reacted the way I did. I still disagree with his philosophies in this area, but I should not have reacted until I’d cooled down and thought through a response. I appreciate Rick’s tolerance until I did have a chance to cool down.

98

Hello - The discussion of the original issue still seems to be alive. Rick posed a relevant question, and it’s kicked off quite a debate. What I was referring to was the sidebar issue of addiction/its treatment/the possible existence of a personality type. One thought: I think it’s tricky to ascribe much of this to “alcoholics,” because you don’t know who here may be in recovery or has loved ones who are, and such a generalization potentially further stigmatizes the group. Narcissism and a lack of empathy shows up in many arenas where alcohol isn’t involved.

From a moderation perspective, I would really rather not shut down a discussion altogether, if the portion that is multiple steps removed from anything related to cars (e.g., opiate treatment, the nature of addiction) could be taken private. As with the variety of other discussions that have been closed, this isn’t because of my personal feelings on the subject, or my belittling its importance, or the strength of your opinions or curiosity. I can’t say that enough. I’m asking folks to please respect the Community Guidelines, which Car Talk asks me to uphold. Thanks.

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@‌cdaquila
I hear what you are saying, but I also hear what @WheresRick is getting at. Even those in rehab while in recovery which goes on for a life time realize that those feelings which make it so difficult to let go of dependency make it also difficult to let go of feelings that manifest them selves while driving. No one is immune to it at sum point. Recognizing for what it is worth is essential in that first step to not trying to control a situation where at your finger tips, is 4000 lbs that could wreck havoc in the lives of those around you. Not recognizing that these tendencies exist in all of us is a dangerous insulation to your responsibilities as a driver.

Behavioral Addiction manifest it self in many ways including driving patterns. Everyone has their own experiences that may or may not set them up for irrational behavior in a social setting, like driving a car. Am essential part of recovery is not taking your anger or depression with you when others lives are at stake. An essential part is recognizing too that we are all subject to such feelings given the right conditions.

Those recovering from chemical addiction, IMHO, don’t need sympathy for their plight, they need reassurance that it’s something we all deal with and they are not alone. It wasn’t as big a deal when your anger and frustrations at one time were manifest by you beating your horse with a whip while someone past you on the right at a gallop. Trying to “teach someone else a lesson” takes on a whole new meaning when driving a car with 300 hp on a snow covered road.

Btw, where I might disagree with @WheresRick is that I feel higher gas prices don’t make us better drivers. It just may keep all drivers including the worse of us, off the road for a few more miles.

100

Wow,I really like Ricks discussion(and I tend to agree on a lot of points) but the guidelines are getting fuzzy again,I’m about to become “rara avis” on this site-I still maintain we need a real “General Discussion” forum-Kevin