Hail to the Chief!

General Discussion
941

From what I have read and heard on an interview by Diane Rehm, there is an increasing job market. Indirectly related to @bing and @rodknox posts is two problems. One, there are a lot of increasing job opportunities out there and too many unqualified people and secondly, there is a difficulty in matching jobs with people who,either can’t relocate or lack a coordinated effort to do the matching.

Without a doubt, more emphasis must be put on schools that are technology based rather then strictly academic and secondly, if companies can’t connect here they will through govts. initiatives of other countries. We can complain all we want about our govt. roll in education and job creation but while “while Nero fiddles Rome burns” and while we continue with cutbacks to both stimulate job growth and provide education and opportunity to our people’s, we will loose out on another overall economic opportunity. We did this stuff a decade ago, by taking the govts. role out of encouraging reinvestment here and all it did was give more then a tacit oK for investment elsewhere. We are headed down the same road and with the same results.

Companies have no more incentive to take the lead in these areas then they do disturbing their yearly profits to invest in the country’s infrastructure which they depend on. There is a time for reinvestment in these opportunities and only the govt. can take the lead.

942

The problem with the job market is,the Buddy,Buddy or good ol boy syndrome,(I’ve had this happen several times myself and immediate family,) it gets down to the last 2-3 applicants(usaully by thinking about the ties you can figure out who is going to get the job) and the one that is the most popular[family has the most money] or everybody wants to get in thier britches, gets the job and the sad part is alot of times the " winner" doesnt keep the job no time and the most qualified doesnt get the job-theres a lot of prejudice too-Kevin

943

The local television station had a short report on the homeless lady

http://www.wtva.com/content/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoid=3991480

she looked and sounded as though she was intelligent enough to go to work on a trial basis with the possibility of making a good worker. But the paper and WTVA are quite timid about stepping on the toes of advertisers and friends of advertisers.

944

A lot depends on what market you’re in and where you live. For computer science…here in the boston area…the market is EXTREMELY HOT. Companies are offering up to $10k hiring bonuses…Companies are flying in potential candidates from out of state (that hasn’t been done it 20 years). Salaries have increased more then 20% in the past 2 years. Any IT or engineering jobs here in the Boston area are seeing major increases. When I was looking for an engineer 3 years ago I’d get 40-60 qualified candidates…now it takes me over a month just to get ONE qualified candidate.

945

"now it takes me over a month just to get ONE qualified candidate. "

Engineering degrees (as is any) are so expensive, many potential students can’t afford to do anything but work at any job ASAP after HS graduation or enroll in less demanding programs. Parents with minimal incomes themselves in these times can’t support their kids which puts education on the back burner.

Govt. student aid is administered backwards when it is available. The student should be required to save or borrow the first year’s expense, then, after successfully completing it, receive a grant that could be used for the second year. It would be much easier and cheaper to administer. You could offer these grants in high demand areas like engineering. The mechanism could be set up with any student accepted to any qualified school with very little turnaround time for payment. Because you are paying for success, qualification for these programs should be minimal and available to anyone who gets accepted at the school.

946
Engineering degrees (as is any) are so expensive, many potential students can't afford to do anything but work at any job ASAP after HS graduation or enroll in less demanding programs. Parents with minimal incomes themselves in these times can't support their kids which puts education on the back burner.

Engineering degree is no more expensive then a degree in English or History. I know many kids in college today who’s parents can’t afford to send them. Some are going to state colleges for lesser tuition then the privates (with student loans). Others are only going part time. The cost is the same, but it’s spread out over a longer period of time. My company offers tuition reimbursement. We have a kid in shipping who’s taking 2 classes a semester at a local college. He’ll be finished in about 3 years. It’s doable. If you really want to go to college and have the drive…there are ways. The problem I see is there are many kids in college who want to go because the job market without a degree is bleak…but they don’t have the drive to do the work required. Partying every night…playing video game marathons all hours of the night…going to classes unprepared. When my daughter went to MIT…she rarely had a social life. Yes it was a sacrifice for her…but she knew what had to be done to get a good degree from such a prestigious college. I wish my middle son had the same attitude.

While I agree education costs have increased drastically…it’s NOT UNATTAINABLE. Look at Harvard as an example…If your income is less then $150k/year…if you kids get accepted to Harvard…tuition is FREE. Harvard no longer gives out academic scholarships anymore. It’s all based on need. Many colleges with large endowments are doing that.

947

See A Problem, Throw Tax Payer Money At It.
What’s Wrong With This Picture ? A Government That Is Beyond Broke Loans Money To Groups Of People Who Are Not Qualified To Borrow It And Have Track Records Of Not Being Able To Pay It Back ?

In My Mind This Insanity Has To Stop. The Spending And Resulting Debt Is Rampant Throughout A Government That Tries To Be Everything To Everybody.

I agree with Mike. If there’s a will, there’s a way. Hard work and sacrifice works. I went to college, my wife went to college, my son went to college, and we all worked our ways through.
I took several years extra because I’d work full-time and go to school part/full-time. Was it pretty ? Was it fun ? No, but I earned everything I learned fron the experience.

My wife managed a resstaurant full-time while in college. My son worked 4 jobs (part time and full-time summers) all through college.

We did not borrow money and didn’t expect any help.

I’ve read of kids who get big student loans that cover tuition, books, room & board, go to college, come out and can’t get work, can’t pay the loan payments, and say " I had no idea that I would be so far in debt. I would have never done it ."

Take government out of student loans and get businesses involved in partnerships with students who have great potential in filling their needs, especially businesses who can’t fill openings.
Let local banks qualify people for loans. They care more about wise investing and can use a profit.

CSA

948

Mississippi is the Cyprus of the United States. The generosity of tax payers in Massachusetts and other blue states makes up nearly half of this states budget

In 2005 we enjoyed $2.02 for every dollar we sent in. Apparently this state’s leaders are missing the mark today just as their predecessors did. Mississippi is the reddest of the red states and the hard core right is very arrogant in their demands and they demand that the federal government continue to send down the support but send it in plain brown wrappers so the Governor and his friends can split it up among themselves and keep the blacks and poor white trash in their place. The “good ole boys” of Mississippi won’t stand for no uppity day laborers. The poor opinion of the working class among the bourgeois of Mississippi is legend.

Mississippi is a world away from Boston, and most of the rest of the country as well. But we seem proud of our bigotry and ignorance and call ourselves fundamentalists and patriots and traditionalists. If the blue states cut us off our renowned leaders would shuffle across the statehouse floor pointing to their counterparts from poor counties (black), blaming them for the dilemma while their families readied themselves to move out of state with the loot from the brown wrappers.

949

@mikeinnh
Of course I agree that all education is expensive. That went without saying. I was not picking on engineering alone. But, the courses are tougher to fit in a lot of programs in 4 years compared to a degree in liberal arts or education. This makes the degree harder to obtain. Similar to Pre med, many colleges are cutting back on course offerings making it almost impossible to finish in 4 years in a lot of specialized fields. Fail one course in more demanding courses and you could add another year or semester to your enrollment.
I thought that might be obvious. Hence the comment as Is any But, instead of supporting your position, it seems to have made another, not obvious contention I don’t get.

The idea of using Harvard as an example of how easy to get a degree in engineering ( or any college) is completely irrelavant. Look at the percent of those going to or accepted to Harvard vs the all too common state university or other. Going to Harvard or Bowdin in Maine with help for all accepted students is not relavant for 95 plus % of the engineers needed. Maybe you are only looking for Harvard grad engineers, but many places will accept others…like UNH.or…Or maybe your progressive business supports the tuition for all the engineers you will ever need…that is no where near the real world employment situation.

And yes Mike, there are a lot of ways to buy a house and pay for the “cost” of higher education for te motivated. But, it still comes down to the haves, you and I, and the have nots who are equally motivated. But to think cost isn’t THE major factor in how many engineers there are available to YOU is not the kind of “head in the sand” reasoning I subscribe to. And, I don’t see alumni associations and businesses stepping forward with enough funds for every dream…for every qualified and motivated student.

You and CSA turned my proposal COMPLETLY around…,the federal government is already supporting college education in grants and loans. My proposal was a way to save money and do it more efficiently.
The only thing from the two of you I can gather is that ALL govt. aid to education especially for college tuition, should be eliminated. You will have to be a non supporter of the military if that’s your supposition…

“Take the govt. out of student loans and let the businesses” …Yada Yada is @CSA proposition…the only reason govt. is involved, is businesses have not done it nation wide…and we are still waiting. When they do take the initiative, like they never have for infrastructure, I will be the first in line to vote no for taxes for college tuition and the like. The govt would like nothing better then to have the businesses step forward. Moneys spend to this end IS deductible…ask Mike.

950
But, it still comes down to the haves, you and I, and the have nots who are equally motivated.

So you’re saying that only people with money have the opportunity to go to college???

But to think cost isn't THE major factor in how many engineers there are available to YOU is not the kind of "head in the sand" reasoning I subscribe to. And, I don't see alumni associations and businesses stepping forward with enough funds for every dream

I have 18 engineers working for me…of the 18…only 3 have come from families wealthy enough to pay for their kids tuition. That leaves 15 engineers who had to take out loans…join the service (like I did)…or go to night school for a few years. Those are FACTS…NOT something you read in an article someplace. I’ve met very very few engineers who’s parents paid for their education.

Is the cost going up…I agree…is it out of reach…NO WAY NO HOW. Many states like California and NY have EXCELLENT state schools that are very attainable. SUNY schools tuition cost is under $6,000. Add with room and board and the cost goes up to $21k. SUNY schools are EXCELLENT schools. $21k is less then half of most private schools. UNH is $38k. MIT is $50k. If you are motivated enough to go to college…there are ways. You don’t have to go to MIT or Harvard to get a good education.

I don’t think the problem is in the higher education systems…but the public school systems. Kids are NOT prepared to enter college. That’s why we spent the money to send our kids to private high-schools. They were very prepared for college.

And, I don't see alumni associations and businesses stepping forward with enough funds for every dream

And unfortunately…it will NEVER happen. There will ALWAYS be individuals who never have the opportunity to go to college. But I believe that MOST of the high-school graduates who want to go to college can if they really want to.

951

Education is expensive if you don’t have the funds to attend.
It’s even more expensive if you have to attend education for a longer period than what is thought of being standard.
Social life while being an engineering student is doable and is probably very dependent on the degree of involvement and aptitude of student.

disclosure: son was dual major, engineering, 10hr/wk research assist., 4-10/hr club. peer to MIT, very high honors, coveted internships. And had a heck of a time finding a position in his field 2008-2010. He was working during this period as a CS staff researcher at a university and with a MS. .

Comment: I just finished Sec of Treas, Henry M. Paulson’s, On the Brink and into Alan Binder’s When the Music Stopped. USA and the World came very close to complete economic disaster with education and jobs as being side shows.

952

Hmmm. I don’t want to be a curmudgeon but I for one am getting sick and tired of EVERYTHING being tied to income (13000 IRS agents added to cope with income issues with Obamacare for example?). At any rate, part of the problem for engineers is that you almost have to have a masters to be recognized which adds to the expense.

Now I went to a private college and I didn’t get one nickel of help from the government. My folks never paid one nickel for tuition or room or board either. I paid half and borrowed half from the local bank and paid it back over ten years. Now it was a reduced 6% interest rate and extended payment period so maybe the gov did have something to do with it, but they never told me. And my folks did help with a small allowance but that’s it. But still it was a private college at twice the cost of a state college, so I think it can be done. My sister has been mad at me for 40 years because she thinks I got something from my folks that she didn’t so maybe some day I’ll tell her. She got a wedding though that cost more than my allowance. I did get a $50 business scholarship though which help with the $2000 annual cost.

I think anybody that has talent and motivation should have the opportunity but not given to them. I worked three years in high school saving most of what I made and in the summers and vacations. Some guys spent a lot on cars and records but I didn’t. I dunno, I think you just have to set your priorities and goals and figure out a way.

Now in Turkey for example, college is provided for everyone BUT there are heavy duty early testing thats done that decides whether you go or not. Screw up the tests and you’re out early on in high school. I just think that knocks out a lot of the late bloomers-particularly those from maybe less academic families. That system probably would have relegated me to a sheet metal worker or bus driver.

Nothing perfect but I don’t see our system as that bad. The problems seem to be early on kids coming from dysfunctional families with a culture that does not support education. That’s a nut that needs to be cracked in a whole different way.

953

Mike…Haves and have nots include support In ways other then our monetary contribution. Our family was not wealthy…but our kids worked during, before and after college to help pay their way. They were motivated but they got our support. I worked 7 jobs per year and was there for every step. Unfortunately, my best response response is referral to @rods post. WE collectively live in a privileged area. That’s why both our kids choose to stay in NE; for the sake of their kids. Mike, you throw $21k per year like it isn’t the cost of a new house per 4 years per kid…we had teacher’s salaries, not your’s. That is way out of reach for a lot of motivated kids with less support then ours.

As a 37 year public and private school math teacher, I am the source of your displeasure with the lack of preparation. Funny thing, I was a better teacher the last year then in the first and my kids were much better prepared. More post secondary education is needed today. But, not in the traditional academic sense. More technical schools and two year programs is where most of the demands are. We are fortunate in the NE and I feel your views are skewed by this location. In northern and coastal Maine…southern US and other places, the conditions are different.

The biggest problem in public schools are the extraneous and unneceassy influences there are having to do with politics, funding and ideas that don’t foster scientific thought. The deterioration of math performance can in our area, be traced to two financial decisions made by area schools to accommodate budget cuts over the last 15 years…larger class size and block sheduling. Bet you would be surprised to know,that schools with block scheduling can see their (individual or group) students for as little as once to two times per week during an entire semester. Try teaching all the necessary topics in a class of thirty kids in calculus under those constraints. If parents had a clue of what actually goes on, they would think twice about cutbacks…if they really cared about education.

954

How Is It That Many People Accuse Business Leaders Of Being Grossly Overpaid, Fat Cat CEOs, CFOs, Etcetera, And Argue That This Drives Up The Cost Of Goods And Services For Consumers, Government Steps In With Regulations, Etcetera, But . . .

. . . when college tuition increases double digits every year, people look to ways of borrowing more money to pay for it ? Our own government recognizes this problem and addresses it with more grants and loans. It seems that the increases aren’t questioned very much.

The rule of 72 roughly suggests that even a 7% annual increase will double tuition in 10 years. Tuiton at a state school in my state, tuition alone is over $10,000/year. When I started at a community college, tuition was $9/credit hour ! And what about the crappy housing for how much ? Why not take a close look at why college costs are rising so fast ?

This is just an observation, but I live in a resort rural neighborhood. A sesonal neighbor 3 houses down from me is a college professor. He works on and off, mostly off. His wife is a “homemaker.” He has 2 new Lincoln SUVs every 2 years. His main home is a couple hundred miles away. The home near me is week-end get-away (and several vacation weeks during the summer). His “cottage” is nicer than my house. He recently built 2 garages (one for cars, one for boats) ordered (while he was away) a finished upstairs (with heat and air conditioning) in the one garage to set up a woodworking shop for a new hobby. It is equipped (at last count) with 10 major wodworker’s machines (from drill presses to table saws and everything in between). You should see the latest pontoon and jet boat and sailboat !

He’s a nice guy and more power to him. My daughter cuts his grass and dog sits (job handed down from my son). However, I don’t have all the details, just observations, but I have to wonder when I see the rising cost of college, are some of these guys overpaid for what they do ? If he quit over wage issues would somebody fill in for a little less ? Some of these guys don’t even teach much, but rather have assistants do that.

Then there’s the state university where my daughter plays the state finals in golf each fall. The place is like the Taj Mahal ! No evidence of budget problems there. The golf courses are beautiful. The new hybrid Camry staff cars are plentiful and many in one administrative parking lot. The buildings are luxurious and clean. Is it possible that costs could be reduced or are they operating bare-bones ?

Maybe it’s just me . . . or is there apattern here ?

CSA

955

CSA…the Taj Mahal at public courses has little to do with Universities tax payer funds but is often paid for as a direct result of Alumni contributions or influence, not your tax dollars. They are dedicated funds to non academic and from some academic endowment from " the same fat cat CEO" , that graduate from the Colleges. So the University BB team gets an invite to play at Fenway Park as an alumni influence…we can’t blame the college.

As far as the college professors are concerned…You are right, I know several as personal friends. They “teach” at the local university but travel and do lab research and projects through grants for their engineering departments. They travel all,over the country to institutes involved in related projects and get very generous stipends from corporations. Their university salary is conservative but their released time is generous because of the funds they bring into the university. Often , these funds are used for student financial aid.

Research at Uni. and corporate funding go hand in hand. Professors do profit from it. But yes, they do what they love and they get paid generously…but not for teaching and not often from tax dollars. And , your description sounds accurate. They have more “homes” then most have cars.

956

A great many adolescents live in poverty, isolated from the world. They couldn’t be more ignorant of the modern world if they actually lived under rocks. They can see that there is a great deal to enjoy in the world but are totally clueless how anyone gets to enjoy the good life other than crooks, dope peddlers, pimps and professional ball players. A green path won’t be materializing under their feet to lead them to an education and prosperity. A great many of the young men from that background will end up in prison. Quite a few will die in ghetto violence and from drug abuse and the ghetto population is growing each year. The Republican answer has been to privatize prisons and fill them and the Republicans want me to think that they are the smartest people in the room.

The cost of a college education is very expensive and like healthcare education’s cost is growing astronomically. Even the upper middle class struggle to put their children through the state universities. Working families cannot cover the cost today because the easy money from home equities has dried up and incomes have been stagnant in the face of persistent COLA increases. But then what good is a degree these days? A clerk at one of the McParts stores here had an MBA degree but when the company that moved him here suddenly folded he had a new home with an upside down mortgage and 3 kids.

As for the military and education, I returned from Vietnam in 1970 and attempted to get an education but found an uphill battle on every front and the $300 per month wouldn’t cover my cost of living much less tuition and books and after working 40 hours each week there was little time to study. But I found a great deal of satisfaction and above average financial reward in being self employed so all in all I am grateful for the opportunities that I have been able to take advantage of.

Many have struggled as hard or harder than me and found no meaningful opportunities though. I know several well and within my means try to assist them but it is very difficult to make up for the lack of understanding resulting from growing up culturally and financially isolated. It seems impossible to train someone to separate operating capital from personal funds. That is at the top of the list of challenges that I meet with ambitious young men. The inability to delay gratification is common and when the register has a few hundreds in it and it’s their cash register they just can’t seem to leave the money to pay the bill that will soon be due.

We each base our opinions on what we have seen and what we have experienced and I do enjoy reading the opinions of others whose lives have crossed different paths especially when we can have a civil and thought provoking discussion. This is one of my favorite forums due to the civility of the members. I will continue in my effort to show the misguided the error of their ways.

957

@rodknox
I thoroughly enjoy your comments. I equally enjoy the comments of everyone, especially those I may disagree with. I never hope to change anyone’s mind but do hope to let them know others may feel differently. By listening to them, I do develope more empathy for their feelings. Hopefully, they will do the same for mine. We don’t succeed as a society when everyone agrees, we succeed as a society when everyone cares.

958

@previous
The problem of public schools is that they are public. Consequently, Everyone, has an opinion.

Son did get a MS in CS after getting a BS in ME. A BIG mistake because he missed the hiring recovery in 2006-2007. Even though he had a full ride for his MS and had multiple international internships, he missed the leading edge of his field.

Our son was fortunate to have two nationally recognized math and physics HS teachers.

Son’s undergrad university is increasing tuition at just 4%. His first year was 8% and at the start of the 9/11 recession and end of the dot com boom.

959

I don’t think that increasing tuition is a bad strategy. Money has a way of forcing schools to allocate money and students-parents to focus of what they need to do. Of course some will have a harder path than others.

960

"I don’t think that increasing tuition is a bad strategy"
Just as good a strategy as increasing the price of gas to limit the amount of driving…works for me too.