@bravesfan314
Thanks for the info. Appreciate it.
UPDATE: Had some difficulty finding it, as you need to not just click on the moderator’s picture to find it, but click further.
somewhere on another side of the Galaxy, long time ago when grass was greener, etc… it was a rule: before one starts posting into certain community, he would watch for other member posts and observe the customary rules…
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Thanks for posting your comment, hoping this board can be kept civil and not attack posters who have a different opinion.
The only ‘mechanics’, and also other posters, I have given strong replies to are the ones who insulted, defamed, called me names, etc., etc. I’m not just posting garbage that I made up. I’m sharing what other mechanics that I have had contact and discussions with believe, which is in opposition to what many believe about low-viscosity oils.
Good post. You are quite knowledgeable. As to all your theories, I am sure many, particularly here, will not agree with all that you believe.
One mechanic in particular I communicate with, I sent an email to about what was happening on this board (he is NOT a poster on this site), He is the one who knows a large number of Toyota and other Master Mechanics, and he went into more detail about this subject and again stressed that not ONE of them would ever run an engine with any oil for 10k miles before changing it.
I will ask this mechanic (and ask him to discuss with his Journeymen mechanic friends) what they think of your assertion that Combustion by-products are no longer the chief contributor to oil contamination, and about your shut-off heat oil breakdown theory. Do you have any sources that could back you up on this? Or is this a theory of your own?
Gas that is combusted is still basically the same process that has been going on since gas-powered engines were first designed. I do agree that oil breaks down from heat, yes, but also from depletion of additives, whose importance seems underplayed by some. Yes, the filter’s job is to catch dirt, etc., and the oil suspends dirt, but only to the point that the oil is simply unable to suspend any more dirt, as the additives that assist are mostly used up.
You claim that oil experiences the most breakdown upon shutting the engine off after the car has run hot. And that the oil left, coating the engine surfaces absorbs even more heat from the hot engine parts, and that causes heavy breakdown of that small amount of oil. Not sure about that one, but it may be true.
If that is true, then you’d want the thinnest oil possible, as thin oil just runs right off the engine parts, leaving no film, which is important in the opposite situation, which is the starting up of a cold engine. No oil coating the parts = heavy wear on startup and until warmup. That is what Castrol’s research revealed, which is in direct contradiction to your belief, because Castrol has two high-end oils that have Molecular Magnetic properties that result in a molecular coating of oil to cling to all the engine parts, so that startup will not cause wear on oil-less engine parts, such as Overhead Cams like Toyota engines use, piston walls, etc. So, in that sense, you would be supportive of using the lowest viscosity oil possible, but I do not believe from your postings that you are supportive of that. Please correct me if I read you in error.
TODAY’S STORY: The Service Mgr. from the dealership I bought my 2017 Camry from had a discussion with me on the phone, and very graciously offered to put in any 5W20 oil that I would like, just asking me to buy it and bring it in, and he would change the filter and change my oil at no charge. I was around 4,800 miles, so it was time for the Toyota Care 5k tire rotation & 27 point check anyway.
That is what I did today. He let me stay in the shop, which is rare, and the mechanic and I had some nice conversation. My oil was medium brown on the stick, but when he drained it, I couldn’t believe how dirty it was. And my oil filter element was a darker brown, and more used up than any of the 15 filter elements they had sitting there from the day’s oil changes. Why, I have no idea. I haven’t driven over any dusty or gravel roads. So, it was clear to me that if that oil were to have remained in the engine per Toyota’s 10k, it would be totally cashed.
From your earlier post, you mentioned that you started changing your relative’s oil after her 2 Toyota Care 10,000 m. changes of 0W-20 had been done. So, you first saw her oil filter with sludge on it at 25k when you changed it. So, you don’t believe in putting 10k on oil before a change, regardless of viscosity. That is and has been my assertion all along in starting and posting on this thread. I’m sure you know how I have been attacked as a result.
From your last paragraph, it appears you are now calculating oil change intervals based on drive cycles. I’ll be curious as to how you will use that data to come up with mileage change intervals.
Statements like this aren’t just offering a different “opinion”, they’re contrary to proven methods and factual data. I service a fleet of vehicles that run conventional oils at 10,000 mile oil changes and rarely see any oil related breakdowns before 400,000 miles. You’re not likely to get much agreement from the professionals here on your assertion.
Again, a statement that is contrary to proven data. Show me some facts that state automobiles are less safe in a wreck than they were 30 years ago.
Why are you putting mechanics in parentheses . . . ?
Are you raising a doubt, as to whether somebody was honest, as to what their profession is/was?
Or are you perhaps questioning their judgement?
I’m not doubting that particular statement. Why would I? I don’t know who you’ve been talking to, outside of this forum
But it is interesting to note that YOU are making those statements, not these other mechanics you refer to 
Maybe they should speak for themselves
And you shouldn’t necessarily expect everybody on this forum to come over to your side, either. Just because you feel you have compelling evidence on your side, doesn’t mean other people will see things your way. You can’t prevail in every discussion. Just imagine how dull life would be, if everybody agreed with everything you said 
I’m not a professional mechanic, and I don’t rebuilt engines. I just know a few people who do. I will try and get some data from the mechanic friend who knows and discusses these issues with his Toyota Master Tech friends, as they are in a car club together. He’s 2,000 m. away, so it’s not like I am his best friend and have constant access to him. He will reply when he has the time.
But, let’s be realisitic, how many mechanics are simply rebuilding blown engines daily? Most are hired to do work on a number of jobs. Yes, some are used more for their engine rebuilding skills, but no dealership has blown engines coming in every day.
Yeah, I found out today how trustworthy Toyota’s 10k intervals are. I had 4,800 m., mixed highway & local, no dusty or gravel roads. The oil was quite dirty, and the typical Toyota removal oil filter element looked worse than the other 15 that were sitting on top of a drum from the day’s oil changes.
I should have done an oil change much sooner on a new car. Engine design and factory engine building techniques may have improved, but I think it is a farse that these new engines don’t need break-in, and don’t produce metal shavings, and I know mechanics who think it is hogwash as well.
@Triedaq Thanks for sharing. As a fellow dog owner (a rescued guy about 8 years ago – best guess is he’s about 10 now) I get it. I’m not sure if our guy will make it to 16, but that’s not entirely up to me.
And in the interest of disclosure, my handle is far less interesting. It is shortened from the nickname (‘Water Buffalo’) for one of our cars (we tend to use nicknames rather than brand or model names).
Why do you constantly challenge me on everything I post?
I’m not accusing anyone of misrepresenting themselves, but how do I know everyone who says they are a full-time, dealership mechanic really is?
As far as expecting the mechanics I refer to are interested in posting on a car blog, come on - most of them are not, and they spend their free time in car clubs or tricking out their own cars, or those of their friends.
No, I don’t expect everyone to come over to my side, but I also don’t expect to be attacked and belittled for expressing my opinions either.
Please help me understand. You are ok with using 5w20 but not the recommended 0w20. Is that correct?
You have convinced yourself based on inexperience and speculation that Toyota’s maintenance schedule will damage engines, I don’t think anyone can change that.
There are millions of Toyotas on the road being operated with the 10,000 miles oil change interval.
I’m allowed to disagree with you. It’s still a free world, last time I looked
There are dealership mechanics on this forum. And there are mechanics on this forum who work in other settings
The mechanics you know don’t necessarily reflect the majority. Just because you know a few mechanics, doesn’t mean you know how most mechanics behave, or what their interests are. I certainly hope you’re not trying to typecast anybody . . .
I can’t speak for anybody else, but I haven’t attacked and belittled you
but I certainly did disagree with you
And I definitely don’t share your opinions
I may be mistaken, but it seems you have big problem with people having opinions which greatly differ from yours
Feel free to continue, but I’m brushing my teeth and going to bed
I have not based my criticism of Toyota’s maintenance schedule out of inexperience or speculation, but on the experiences of a number of mechanics. And, today, on my own Camry. Did you even read my post on my oil change today?
4,800 miles, and the oil was filthy, as was the filter. And then go 10k on that oil on Toyota’s schedule? No way.
“There are millions of Toyotas on the road being operated with the 10,000 miles oil change interval.” Do you have backup that supports this? There are more people out there who will absolutely not go 10,000 on the same oil. You can even see that in this forum thread’s answers. There are probably plenty of Toyota’s with 10,000 oil changes that don’t make it over 150,000 miles without engine problems.
Here is a nice reveal of the nonsense on the narrow view of using ONE weight and one weight only, and what the law says car mfrs. can and can’t do. Thanks to the Federal Magnusson Moss Act, consumers are protected from auto mfrs. who think they can demand “only 0W-20”, which is utter nonsense.
So, with all the cars you see (do you work on them?), you can attest to 10k oil change intervals as being
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Here are the technical facts behind 5W-20 and 0W-20 oil specs:
Question: My owners manual specifies 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do I really need to use 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil and why did my 2000 model year vehicle require a 5W-30 oil, while the exact same engine in my 2001, 2002 and newer engines “requires” a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil?
Answer: NO! You do not need to use a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do not let your dealer scare you by telling you that you have to use 5W-20 oil for your warranty. That is a tactic that some dealerships use to scare customers. Once you know the facts and the Federal Magnusson Moss Act law, you will be much better informed to protect your rights and use the type of fluids you want to use.
The main reason 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV’s, which typically have poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil will allow Honda and Ford’s overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil.
For better performance and protection we recommend using AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30 synthetic motor oil. This is the top performing AMSOIL Motor Oil for gasoline powered light trucks and passenger cars. It uses race-proven technology and provides unsurpassed fuel efficiency and better wear protection than other conventional and synthetic motor oils. It is a 35,000 mile/1-year change interval motor oil. .
Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?
Answer: Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.*
You are mistaken. There are a lot of people who have a big problem with me having opinions different than theirs.
Cute dog.
Yes, it is too thin when cold - that’s when it is truly 0W. It takes some time for this thin oil to get hot and become 20W to supply the film strength that a heavier oil provides. 20W is barely acceptable, if that.
Don’t you know that all these lower weight oils were necessitated by the garbage Federal CARE regulations to improve gas mileage, without any concern about what it does to engine life?.
If you are looking for a conspiracy it is with the EPA.
The engine oil and fuel used in an engine during the EPA certification process is the oil and fuel that must be listed in the owners manual. Owners manuals will sometimes list 10W30 and 10W40 for the same vehicle if it is operated outside the United States.
Your observation of the oil condition means nothing, next time take a sample and have an oil analysis performed. The oil and filters from our loan cars always come out black. These cars are left idling by our lot boys for long periods of time, the black oil does not indicate an impending failure.
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No, I think 5W-20 is too thin as well, but 5 provides some residual lubrication on internal engine parts after it drains, but not much. This is a compromise on my part, because using, say 10W-30, which was used for decades on cars that would go 200 to 350k miles, on your oil change record would cause Toyota to try to invalidate your warranty. But there is a Federal Magnusson Moss Act the car mfrs. figure few know about that says they can’t stipulate this one weight only nonsense, and your warranty is intact. If you have an engine problem, Toyota would have to prove the oil caused it, and if they are that crooked to do so, you would have to write Corporate, as people have, and inform them of their violation of the Act, and you’ll get a letter real quick recanting their refusal to honor their warranty. If not, you file suit against them, and they’ll then offer to replace your engine.
Yeah, it’s all about the car mfrs. being pushed against the wall to meet EPA mileage improvement guidelines, or be fined.
As far as my car and oil, I don’t know what relevance your loaner cars being abused has to my car. Under idle, is not full oil circulation happening? I believe so, especially the hotter the engine temps get, which will increase the viscosity to 20.
One guy on this thread says an oil analysis means nothing on one car, so I would assume you strongly disagree with him. If you think an analysis will give an accurate diagnosis, I’ll consider getting one.
ToyotaWill- you are confused about how multi- viscosity works. None of it thickens as it heats up. You can prove this yourself. Take any multi weight oil you wand and 4 plastic cups. Put one in the freezer, one in the fridge, one at room temp and warm one in the microwave (better make that one a microwave safe cup). The warmer the oil, the faster it will flow. The multi- grade oils just thin less as they warm because of viscosity index improvers,
For example a 10W-30 oil is made of a 10 weight base stock and when cold it flows like a 10 weight oil. When it reaches full operating temp , it is thinner than it was at zero but is the same weight as a straight 30 weight oil at operating temp.
There were many reasons for shorter oil change intervals in the past, the long chain molecules in natural oils broke into shorter chains with heat and shear reducing the viscosity, and the viscosity improvers acted the same way. Also the early viscosity improvers needed to be used in large amounts and the larger the viscosity range, the more additives. When 10W-40 came out many people started using it and it started leaving deposits the built uu behind piston rings and sticking them. So in a few years the car companies recommended against 10W-40 oil.
in the 50s and 60s I used to use Atlantic 10W20 in the winter and 20W40 in the summer in both my car and our class 8 gasoline engined trucks.
When I click on cdaquila’s pic I get a blue lozenge in the upper right corner that says message.
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