Full Synthetic 0W-20 engine oil change interval

[Whitey]

@ToyotaWill

Sad little snide comments? No, simply a statement of fact.

Shall we parse your “facts,” one by one? Okay, I’ll do it.

First, it might be a good idea to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Facts can be confirmed. “There are three people in the room” is a fact, because we can count the people in the room and confirm it.

Opinions cannot be confirmed. “Low-viscosity oils are aptly called ‘water oils,’ since they are about as thin as water” is an opinion, because you used the qualifier “about as thin,” which can be neither confirmed nor debunked because my idea of “about as thin as water” might vary from yours.

With that criteria in mind, here we go:

@ToyotaWill

It seems common that on car blog sites, very few people know some of the TRUE facts about the wonderful low-viscosity oils, which are more aptly called “water oils”, since they are about as thin as water.

That’s an opinion, although it might be a well-substantiated opinion if you describe the people who describe oil that way. What is their expertise, and why didn’t you cite your source? Doing so wouldn’t make it a fact, but it would be an educated opinion.

@ToyotaWill

The reason is that ‘water oil’ leaves almost no FILM on the cylinder walls, the rings, the bearings, and the overhead cam shaft.

How do you define “almost” in that context? Can you replace “almost no film” with a quantifiable amount? That would make it factual. I’m not convinced that low viscosity oil has this issue until you prove it, and you haven’t proven it yet.

@ToyotaWill

Castrol has found that it takes 20 minutes for a car to reach full operating temps and parameters, and that 75% of engine wear occurs when starting the engine after it has been sitting for hours. It doesn’t matter if it is winter or summer, particularly with water oils as they will just quickly leave parts without just about any lubrication.

If it’s not too much trouble, would you mind citing the document where this knowledge comes from? I accept the “20 minutes” value, but I don’t accept that the oil leaves some parts unlubricated because of it. I might reconsider if you cited a credible source I could confirm.

@ToyotaWill

It is also a known fact that Toyota has been making the same 2.5 L - DOHC 4 cyl engine design, called the AR, since 2008. From 2008 on, they all are basically identical with slight changes in hp. But they all are DOHC, 16V w/Dual VVT-i.

I’m willing to accept this at face value without you citing a source, but I’m not sure what it proves. Can you please elaborate?

@ToyotaWill

But, back in 2008 the recommended oil was 5W-20, when they began this foolishness solely to get more gas mileage to meet Federal CAFE higher mileage requirements.

Actually, the move to thinner multi-viscosity oils began long before that, back in the 1980s. My mother’s 1985 Ford Escort was my family’s first car to use 10W-30, and the naysayers didn’t like it back then, but it didn’t hurt the car. My 1998 Civic has used 5W-30 oil since day one, for more than 290,000 miles, and it hasn’t caused any problems. Each transition has been fine, so I see no reason to fear using 0W-20 oil in a new car that was made to use it.

In the end, your car’s owner’s manual or repair manual will usually list more than one oil for your engine based on your climate. For example, take a look at the attached picture.

This engine can use 10W-30 in temperatures between 10 degrees and 90 degrees, or either 20W-40 or 20W-50 in any temperatures above 10 degrees.

@ToyotaWill

The bottom line is: You don’t leave ANY oil in an engine for 10,000 miles, or you are greatly shortening the life of the engine.

Sorry, but that’s not a fact, it’s your opinion, and left unsubstantiated by not citing a source, it’s not even an expert opinion. The same goes for:

@ToyotaWill

Furthermore, you shouldn’t use ‘water oil’ of 0W-20, but you are backed into a corner by Toyota, who is working against you, not for you.

Regarding:

@ToyotaWill

You literally have to find a dealer or a non-dealer shop to do your oil changes, and not print a receipt that shows they used anything other than 0W-20. You need to throw it right back at Toyota, and play games just like they do to protect yourself, as YOU are number one, NOT Toyota.

I submit that the best way to protect yourself is to protect your warranty, and using an oil that is not recommended by the manufacturer, or not keeping a record of maintenance, (or worst of all, doing both) puts your warranty in jeopardy should you need it. That’s a fact.

@ToyotaWill

…ask yourself WHY even Toyota Master Techs have said so? I’ve spoken to several high-end Foreign car shop owners, who were friendly, willing, and even interested in talking about this subject.

Would you mind sharing their names and credentials? I’d like to confirm your story.

@ToyotaWill

Do your own research on Google.

If I were looking to convince anyone that my opinion was worthy of consideration, I wouldn’t use Google as my reference. I would look for credible peer-reviewed publications, and whether my sources were academic or not, I’d cite them. I wouldn’t plagiarize the ideas of others by sharing them without citing my sources.

@ToyotaWill

Yes, there are mechanics who agree with Toyota. There is obviously differences of opinion, and each camp insists they are right.

So you admit this is a matter of opinion? That’s interesting.

[ToyotaWill]

asemaster:

Provide me with your “proven data” that 10,000 miles is fine for a car. Contrary to what you say, the more mechanics I speak with agree they would never run any oil in their own cars for 10k. Of more import is my recent connection with the major player behind a well-known and respected petroleum organization has talked my ear off on how synthetic oil is actually created and from what, and it leaves all the arguments here in the dust. Since few care to hear what I have to say,.I’m not wasting my time to prove even more about synthetics to individuals who think they know all the correct answers. I’m confident in what knowledge I have gained in a short amount of intense research, so I don’t need mechanics or just car buffs to represent themselves as authorities and try and contradict everything I say. People can cling to their beliefs; that is their perogative.

[db4690]

So you think you know all there is to know about motor oil, after talking to a few unnamed mechanics and a “major player behind a well-known and respected petroleum organization” . . . ?

@ToyotaWill

Since few care to hear what I have to say,.I’m not wasting my time to prove even more about synthetics to individuals who think they know all the correct answers

I told you earlier . . . we’ve already had these discussions and heard this stuff, long before you showed up

@ToyotaWill

I don’t need mechanics or just car buffs to represent themselves as authorities and try and contradict everything I say.

We’re not representing ourselves as “authorities”

And as far as contradicting everything you have to say . . . if we have different opinions, we’re certainly not going to agree with you, just to make you happy

[PvtPublic]

@ToyotaWill

. Of more import is my recent connection with the major player behind a well-known and respected petroleum organization

Would this be an owner of one of the many “Quick Lube” type places?

@ToyotaWill

’m not wasting my time to prove even more about synthetics to individuals who think they know all the correct answers.

Yes you are. You are still here

@ToyotaWill

I’m confident in what knowledge I have gained in a short amount of intense research, so I don’t need mechanics or just car buffs to represent themselves as authorities and try and contradict everything I say.

So after your “short amount of intense research” you obviously are more knowledgeable than the mechanics and chemical engineers (yes there are a couple here. And they are laughing so hard they can’t even type a response) here that have been dealing with things like this all their careers.
That’s like telling your doctor to get lost because you’ve been reading webMD for a couple weeks.

@ToyotaWill

People can cling to their beliefs; that is their perogative.

Yes sir we can. And believe it or not we can also either agree or disagree with you based on our beliefs. Which leads me to the point. If you don’t like the comments people are making you don’t have to stay and read them. The fact that you stayed and keep trying to push your unsubstantiated conspiracy bs by spewing more unsubstantiated bs, says a lot. If you can’t put actual facts on the table, you got nothing. And if you don’t like this post … tough.

[texases]

@ToyotaWill

Of more import is my recent connection with the major player behind a well-known and respected petroleum organization has talked my ear off on how synthetic oil is actually created and from what, and it leaves all the arguments here in the dust.

This isn’t related to your Amsoil comment, is it? I’m sure somebody connected to Amsoil will spread all kinds of ‘inside info’ about how those ‘other’ synthetics aren’t any good. Not that they’re right, of course.

[ToyotaWill]

@texases

No, the individual and organization is NOT Amsoil. When I quoted from Amsoil, I thought I deleted all mention of the name Amsoil, but I missed one. I did not quote these to promote their oil, but to give some of their findings on synthetic oil and car mfrs. not being able to require you to use specific synthetics. This is published information, not from speaking to anyone at Amsoil, and I found it in a search. If you want the URL, I can see if I bookmarked it.

[Triedaq]

The best synthetic oil is RK 10W-30. What proof do I have? I have a lawnmower that was doubling as a mosquito fogger. When I went to buy oil for the mower, instead of buying dino straight 30 weight, I spent an extra dollar and gambled that dollar and the engine on the mower. The oil consumption was reduced 75% and the synthetic oil bought me another season out of the mower I was going to replace. The straight 30 weight was $1.79 a quart and the 10W-30 RK full synthetic was $2.79.
While everything above is factual it isn’t proof of anything. A sample of size one proves nothing. I have no idea why the synthetic helped my mower. The manual for the mower calls for straight 30 weight detergent oil. I bought the mower in 1992, so it has had 26 seasons of use. Furthermore, automobile engines are different than 1 cylinder mower engines. My experience has given me evidence that using synthetic oil does have its merits.

[ToyotaWill]

db469010h
So you think you know all there is to know about motor oil, after talking to a few unnamed mechanics and a “major player behind a well-known and respected petroleum organization” . . . ?

(That’s a condescending & insulting comment, but I’ve found that is to be expected from your posts. A "few unnamed mechanics and a “major player…”. What makes you think you are entitled to have full names of mechanics you don’t even post on this board? The ones who do here don’t identify themselves, but only give Usernames. And I’m not revealing who or what organization for two reasons: I respect their position & hardly think they want to have their information plastered on a message board. He is far above the level of a message board. And, second, I’m not providing any information that you demand when you are simply hostile & admit to enjoying getting a rise out of me with your comments. I think I’ll just not reply to any more of your comments, as it is waste of my time, and I’ll handle such posts another way.

ToyotaWill:
Since few care to hear what I have to say,.I’m not wasting my time to prove even more about synthetics to individuals who think they know all the correct answers
I told you earlier . . . we’ve already had these discussions and heard this stuff, long before you showed up

(And simply argued your same, inaccurate information. Think that your comment impresses me? Not in the least.)

ToyotaWill:
I don’t need mechanics or just car buffs to represent themselves as authorities and try and contradict everything I say.
We’re not representing ourselves as “authorities”

And as far as contradicting everything you have to say . . . if we have different opinions, we’re certainly not going to agree with you, just to make you happy

(Likewise, I’ll contradict everything you (others) have say, if I have different opinions. I have the same right.)

[texases]

You’ve made many claims. I’ve seen nothing factual to back them up. More importantly, in the years on this ‘come tell us your problems’ discussion board (and we get all kinds of problems here), we don’t get Toyota owners coming here complaining about worn out engines. And the reliability ratings on Consumer Reports don’t indicate the problem with 0w-20 oil. So your claims are unsupported by actual problems.

[Triedaq]

I miss the oil message on the 2006 Uplander that I once owned. It would indicate the percentage of oil life left so that I would know when to change the oil. The percentage of oil life remaing varied by the type of driving and the season. In the summer with open road highway driving, I would still have 10% oil life after 9000 miles. With stop and start short distance winter driving, I would have about 10% oil life in less than 4000 miles. The algorithm making the calculation did not take into account the type or viscosity of the oil in the crankcase… My 2017 Sienna has an indicator light for oil service that comes.on around 10,000 miles and does not take into account the type of driving that put on those 10,000 miles.
When I first started driving back in the late 1950s, 2000 miles between oil changes was recommended. It then jumped to 3000, then 5000, then 7500 and now we are pushing 10,000 miles.
We also, back in the 1950s had debates about multi-viscosity oil like.10W - 30, and debates.abojt heavy detergent vs non detergent oils. There were myths about mixing brands of oil and once you started using a particular brand, you had to keep using that brand. I learned that as long as oils met certain specifications, there was no harm in mixing brands. My guess is that in the next five years, 0W -20 full synthetic will be the standard just as 10W-30 once was and 10,000 mile oil changes will be the standard just as 3000 miles used to be.

[Rod-Knox]

How soon can everyone size up and accept their position in the pecking order and move on to discussing how to avoid the fox?

[Whitey]

@ToyotaWill

No, the individual and organization is NOT Amsoil.

How mysterious! When are you going to reveal this mystery person’s name?

[db4690]

@ToyotaWill

I think I’ll just not reply to any more of your comments, as it is waste of my time, and I’ll handle such posts another way.

To be honest, it sounds as if the main problem is that you can’t handle the situation . . . the situation being that virtually nobody on this forum has come over to your side

[ToyotaWill]

@texases

That’s your opinion. What have YOU provided factual to dispute any of my writings? A claim that in the years you’ve been on this board, “we don’t get Toyota owners coming here complaining about worn out engines.” And then using Consumer Reports as a trustworthy resource? “So your claims are unsupported by actual problems.” Beyond laughable. Your simplistic dismissal and constant attack posts are not even worthy of any replies.

You want to see complaints about Toyotas? Go to ConsumerAffairs.com and read the thousands of them. And many about engines. Toyota was notorious for truly messed-up engine problems, like the fabulous piston rings that were burning oil like mad. There are pages & pages of horror stories on all types of issues on Toyotas, from engines to numerous components, parts and designs. Toyota is near the top of the list. And it wasn’t something I was expecting, and has given me cause, as many are stupid design flaws that make GM’s messups look like nothing.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota-camry.html?page=1

Have fun reading!

[ToyotaWill]

@db4690

Last response to you. You have made a quest out of incessantly posting confrontative, argumentative postings that even you have stated you enjoy doing so:
:
db46903d Whitey
Whitey:
There is no upside to engaging with this person.
But it’s kind of fun . . . because he seems to get mighty upset when somebody disagrees with him, and even more so when the same person repeatedly disagrees with him

I’m totally over you and your postings. And not because “you can’t handle the situation…” No, because trying to have a dialogue with someone who simply wants to antagonize and get a rise out of the other person is of no value and simply a waste of time. I won’t participate in communication with you - so post away.

Do you have a job or work at all? Most people don’t spend their day and night posting constantly on a message board, and, in your case, to stalk particular people that you want to antagonize and harass. Go back to brushing your teeth; perhaps you can post more pictures of doing so.

[keith]

I would like to call an audible here. We can disagree with each other, but lets not attack each other. So everyone take a breath, please.

[Barkydog]

Keep it going, I will post my 10k mile oil analysis in a mere 7 or 8 months.

[bing]

OK, I’ve got a couple mailers you can have so you’re ready in the spring for an analysis. Did one test and they sent me a bunch of mailers for future tests. They’re just taking up shelf space but too nice to throw out.

Over 200 responses-sheesh. Can we give it a rest? I’ve been around here for longer than I can remember but at least 15-20 years. I’m not a mechanic except for DIY but have logged over 1.5 million miles, so I have some experience. There are people on this site that I have come to trust for their experience and expertise. They are shop owners, mechanics, engineers, failure analysis experts, and even a lawyer or two-although they may not admit it. Just so any future readers of this conversation can put it in perspective, among the ones I trust, and sure I’ll miss some are: ASE, DB, Doc, Capri, The Same, VDC, Common Sense, Rod, Texases, sgtrock, Oldtimer, and others.

I don’t mind someone with a different view to share but let’s be a little less combative. Maybe we should talk about drum brakes versus disc brakes again for a change, or Romex in conduit.

[auto-owner]

I’ve just been trusting my Oil LIfe Monitor, and it sure has no problem with 1-year, 10K mile oil changes. In fact it allows for a slightly longer period and another thousand miles or so.

[asemaster]

@ToyotaWill

Provide me with your “proven data” that 10,000 miles is fine for a car. Contrary to what you say, the more mechanics I speak with agree they would never run any oil in their own cars for 10k.

You’re asking me for evidence of a problem that does not exist. The highway is not littered with cars whose engines have blown up because they followed the mfr. recommended oil service schedule. Using the proper spec oil, a quality filter, keeping it full, and following the recommended schedule simply will not damage your engine. I don’t need data to show that anymore than I need data to show brushing your teeth is good for your mouth. It’s just common sense.

I don’t take notes and make records of every car I see, but oil related damage is done by going beyond the oil life, by not keeping the oil full, by using the wrong oil, by using inferior filters, and such. Yes there are exceptions. GM had some timing gear issues, Toyota had oil gel problems (before the days of of 0W20), and there are others. But they are few and far between.

I’m not the one making claims about some conspiracy regarding CAFE standards and purporting to have the inside scoop about what really goes on in oil factories from an unnamed source.

Would I run the oil in my car for 10,000 miles? Not in my 99 Chevy Silverado, nor in my 2002 Explorer or 2002 Mercury. Because they require more frequent changes. But last month we bought a 2018 Cadillac. I will change the oil when the oil life monitor indicates oil life at 10% OR one year has passed, because that’s what the manufacturer requires. If that’s at 10,000 miles, so be it. I’m a professional mechanic and willing to do that with my own $50,000 car. If that’s not putting my money where my mouth is, I don’t know what is.