- A flashing yellow arrow must be follo0wed by a steady yellow arrow or a green arrow.
actually i’m confused on this one…when a flashing yellow arrow (proceed with caution, yield to oncoming traffic) is followed by a solid yellow arrow, does that solid yellow arrow mean the oncoming traffic has stopped (allows intersection to clear)? if so, ok…if not…this sounds bad.
When the flashing yellow arrow ends and the solid yellow arrow above it displays, it means the permissive turn is ending. The next display will be a red arrow. But at the SAME TIME, the opposing circular green changes to circular yellow, and then to circular red. The intersection is being cleared of both movements at the same time. Some installations end the flashing yellow arrow a few seconds after the opposing circular green ends.
When the permissive period is followed by a protected left turn, the flashing yellow arrow is replaced by a green arrow, with no visible clearance period. Opposing traffic has a circular red when the green arrow is shown.
Haven’t you figured it out? He is right and the rest of us opinionated cretins are wrong. No amount of reasoning or logic will change that.
I am saying that the federal government is in the process of CHANGING the rules. Some states have already made the change. Other states have not. But the change will be made.
Note that the states that have not yet changed the rules have NO definition for a FLASHING yellow arrow. You are quoting the definition for a STEADY yellow arrow. But flashing indications never have the same meanings as steady indications.
Here is a link to the changes in the federal standards for traffic control. It requires Adobe reader. Signals are in part 4:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/proposed_amend/npa_text.pdf
Here is a slideshow that is quite informative. It takes time to load, and requires powerpoint:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/proposed_amend/08npa_pt4.ppt
so in some cases (existing installations) a steady yellow left turn arrow means protected left turn is ending, and in other cases (new installations) a steady yellow left turn arrow means permissive left turn is ending. Which case it is, depends on entirely on noticing whether there are additional lights in the traffic signal or not?
i’m sorry, but i can’t see that being a good idea. today there can never be oncoming traffic if you have a steady yellow left turn arrow, even if we introduce a flashing yellow left turn, we can’t change the meaning of a steady yellow left turn arrow.
(and yes i know it’s not your idea)
Correct me if I am wrong, and i know someone will, but does the law not state that no car should be in the intersection unless they are driving through it. We are using the example of a car waiting to turn left in the intersection and then gets caught in “the trap”. Should not this car wait behind the stopline until it can see traffic is clear, and then proceed?
This would negate altogether the problem of "the trap’ because the car would not be in the intersection when the light turned yellow, being behind the stop line and not in the intersection, and oncoming traffic would not be an issue.
It depends on what was on BEFORE the steady yellow arrow, and what is on after it. 4 cases are possible:
Green arrow, changes to Yellow arrow, changes to Red arrow
Green arrow, changes to Yellow arrow, changes to Flashing yellow arrow
Flashing yellow arrow, changes to Yellow arrow, changes to Red arrow
Flashing red arrow, changes to Yellow arrow, changes to Red arrow
The change from flashing yellow arrow to green arrow does not use the steady yellow arrow.
These are analogous to the 3 cases shown with the doghouse signal:
Green arrow, changes to Yellow arrow, changes to Circular red
Green arrow, changes to Yellow arrow, changes to Circular green
Circular green, changes to Circular yellow, changes to Circular red
The change from circular green to green arrow does not use a steady yellow indication.
Certainly you look at the signal more than once, as you approach the intersection. If so, you know what was already on before the steady yellow arrow.
The steady yellow indication indicates a reduction in your right of way as well as an end to it.
If the first indication you see is steady yellow arrow, you should prepare to stop anyway. You are too far from the intersection to make the turn.
Question: If you want the yellow arrow to be restricted to clearing a green arrow, then with what is the flashing yellow arrow supposed to be cleared? It has to be cleared before the red arrow appears.
You will see several different flashing yellow arrow faces:
For left turns with yellow trap, but no protected turn phase (top to bottom):
Red arrow
Yellow arrow
Flashing yellow arrow
For left turns with a protected turn phase, this is the standard:
Red arrow
Yellow arrow
Flashing yellow arrow
Green arrow
The flashing yellow arrow and the green arrow can be clustered horizontally:
Red arrow
Yellow arrow
Green Arrow / Flashing yellow arrow
A doghouse face with different indications for protected and permissive might be used with some existing signal controllers that can’t combine the yellow arrows:
Red arrow
Yellow arrow / Yellow arrow
Green arrow / Flashing yellow arrow
An existing doghouse face might be converted (and rewired) this way:
Circular red
Yellow arrow / Circular yellow
Green arrow / Flashing yellow arrow
The law in Indiana says that it is unlawful to enter an intersection unless you are sure you can immediately leave it.
But part of the problem is that a car approaching the intersection has not yet stopped, the light turns yellow, and the driver has an opportunity to continue turning IF the other cars are going to stop. He thinks he can make it through, because he thinks the other cars will stop for a yellow light. The problem is that the other cars have a GREEN light.
Whether or not the yellow trap is an issue, engineers also need a way to allow a permissive turn when the circular indication is red. Intersections with odd geometries (e.g. five legs) often need such an indication. Without the flashing yellow arrow, there is no easy way to give such an indication. This causes the engineer to either have to waste green time protecting a low-demand turn, or spend a lot more for optically programmed signals.
In fact, it was at such an intersection that the flashing yellow arrow was initially tried.
The sad fact is that the waiting car should not pull in front of cars that haven’t stopped. He only thinks he can make it through because he has made an incorrect assumption.
Driving a car safely means not taking anything for granted. Do you think oncoming traffic will stop just because your light has turned yellow? Whether or not there is a “yellow trap,” making that assumption is UNSAFE. So you think that oncoming car turning right will stop at his red light just because you have a green arrow? THINK AGAIN! Do you think that driver turning left on a solid green will yield to you because you have the right of way? Probably not if your right turn signal is flashing.
This “yellow trap” is based on a false assumption. Drivers should know it isn’t safe to make assumptions on what other drivers will do. You can NEVER assume another driver will do the right thing. Doing so is reckless and stupid!
But too many idiot drivers do it anyway. It’s sort of like trying to stop drunk driving by passing a law against it. The law alone does not work, because too many drivers are reckless and stupid - or they don’t know that the opposing signal might not be turning yellow. Most small town signals do not have split-phase capabilities, so he may never have seen one that changes the opposing signals at different times.
I would rather not be the driver going straight in the opposing direction, because I don’t even have a change in signal indication to tell me that some idiot is going to suddenly try to turn left in front of me. My signal changes 5 to 7 seconds AFTER the idiot turns in front of me.
That alone is justification for the new signal. It WILL prevent the idiot from turning in front of me, because his left turn signal signal will not change when the straight ahead signal next to it changes to yellow.
I am having trouble understanding the original question and all the circularity and upcoming laws. So if this is irrelevant please forgive me. One thought of an improvement I wish could be made is for a left turn arrow that turns red, so you must wait until the light cycles again for a left turn arrow. Many times I am stopped at a red left turn arrow with no oncoming traffic and though I could make a left turn very safely I obey the rules and wait. My thought is by law you must yeild to oncoming traffic but the signaling could be confusing to many people. My first accident, an undocumented alien borrowing his sisters car, no license no insurance turns left in front of me while I have a green light and totaled my car. Officer to other driver, are you sure the light was not yellow? Other driver no sir light was green I turn and he hit me.
That’s what this is about. Engineers have several choices under the new rules:
Steady red arrow - stop and stay. You must wait until the signal changes.
Flashing red arrow - stop, and proceed when the way is clear.
Flashing yellow arrow - Yield to opposing traffic. NEW!
Steady green arrow - Go
Steady yellow arrow - Prepare to stop.
The problem is the circular green. It causes problems two ways:
People see green and go, even though left turns with a circular green must yield.
The circular green also controls other movements, so it can’t be stopped at a different time for left turning drivers.
It is possible for the green to change to yellow in one direction, while remaining green in the other direction.
Several courts have ruled that the yellow trap is irresponsible engineering. They ruled that neither driver was at fault, and that both drivers could sue the government agency responsible.
So many governments are using flashing yellow arrows to remove liability.
Circular green is just a regular green light?
Yes. It’s round, as opposed to being an arrow…
Question: If you want the yellow arrow to be restricted to clearing a green arrow, then with what is the flashing yellow arrow supposed to be cleared? It has to be cleared before the red arrow appears.
it would be cleared by a solid yellow arrow, but the solid yellow arrow would be displayed after opposing traffic was stopped. In otherwords, you can’t transition off the flashing yellow arrow until you stop opposing traffic and give the left turn traffic an unobstructed opportunity to clear the intersection.
this would retain the meaning of the solid yellow arrow, that is, it would still mean you have right of way. you would never have to know “what happened before” to know what the solid yellow arrow means.
Question: If you want the yellow arrow to be restricted to clearing a green arrow, then with what is the flashing yellow arrow supposed to be cleared? It has to be cleared before the red arrow appears.
it would be cleared by a solid yellow arrow, but the solid yellow arrow would be displayed after opposing traffic was stopped. In otherwords, you can’t transition off the flashing yellow arrow until you stop opposing traffic and give the left turn traffic an unobstructed opportunity to clear the intersection.
That’s kind of hard to do, since the circular green and yellow shown to the opposing traffic, and the flashing and steady yellow arrows shown to the left turning traffic, are all being run from the same phase control unit. The flashing yellow arrow does exactly what the green light facing opposing traffic does, because both are powered by the same driver circuit. The steady yellow arrow is arranged to light when either the circular yellow facing opposing traffic lights, or when the green arrow ends and its yellow arrow output comes on.
It is possible to use a double clearance timer to start the steady yellow arrow when the circular yellow ends, but that requires that a special traffic signal controller with more than 8 phases must be bought. It also means more intersection dead time. But at least one jurisdiction is doing this.
this would retain the meaning of the solid yellow arrow, that is, it would still mean you have right of way. you would never have to know “what happened before” to know what the solid yellow arrow means.
I never thought of the yellow arrow as having that meaning. It means "stop before entering the intersection, or clear the intersection.
The display of the yellow arrow following the flashing yellow arrow is no different than displaying the circular yellow to traffic waiting to make a left turn after they try to turn on a circular green (in situations without yellow trap). The traffic has exactly the same ability to clear. No other traffic in conflict can be released until after the yellow arrow and it’s red clearance period ends.
A steady yellow arrow can not be displayed while any conflicting traffic has a circular green. So you are guaranteed that no yellow trap exists when a yellow arrow is displayed.
But you do not have the right to start to move to make the turn when the steady yellow arrow comes on. There never was any such right. If you are already stopped at the stop line when the yellow arrow comes on, you must wait for the next cycle.
I guess I can get behind this idea if it means they will do a better job of fixing all the broken traffic signals.
I think that the flashing yellow arrow light is confusing. They have just recently been installed in Liberty, MO. I don’t think I have run across them anywhere else. You grow up with the turn lane either with a green arrow or a solid green light with the instruction green arrow means turn or solid green light means WAIT your turn. Now to me a yellow light means to slow down the light is gonna be red soon. Not WAIT your turn to turn. I noticed when these lights where installed many people were confused as to how to use this new procedure. I guess I am old fashion if its not broke don’t fix it. And how much money went into this new way of thinking?
"The real problem is that most people expect the green lights in both directions to end at the same time. They think opposing traffic is going to stop at the same time. Most signals do this. But then they come to a signal that doesn’t always do this. "
This sums the problem up succinctly for me. I have not seen a flashing yellow, but it sounds like a good idea. I've had just this problem -- there's intersections in Cedar Rapids that have a green arrow, but NEVER actually give the arrow, they give the solid green for left turns. *NOBODY* can turn left if they don't wait for the solid green to turn yellow, wait a moment, *assume* the oncoming direction has a red also and turn out in front of the oncoming traffic. If the opposing direction did not turn red, this would be collision city. This flashing yellow would solve this nicely.
You guys that are hating on Troubleshooter, no, it's not a matter of driver training, the drivers that *do* follow the rules wait 4 to 5 light cycles, give up, then pull back out of the left turn lane into traffic because left turns at these intersections are simply impossible otherwise. The flashing yellow won't really change anything as these intersections are set up, but will add the information that yes, the oncoming traffic is stopping.