Driving in 13 feet of snow

General Discussion
41

“I have never driven Awd” @Keith "I really don’t see much differnce from one vehicle to another"
Thank you do admitting to that.

The difference between traditional partime 4wd and Awd in seemlessly operating on slippery roads is dramatic. The difference between Awd and 2wd in control ( given the same tires) in snow and ice…is so dramatic, it isn’t fair to compare.

Those of you who say, once moving there is little or no difference, have never tried to drive up a grade or accelerate or merge or go through an intersect, all while turning in snow or ice.

Bottom line. In a fwd car you cannot steer very well at all, if you can even get going, if your wheels slip, even a little while doing all these things. With Awd which monitors power, front to back and shifts power to the rear while accelerating or just cruising, you can still steer.

So, if you say there is no differnce, you are dead wrong. There is a huge advantage to the Awd in steering in slippery going. If that doesn’t make for a safer car…what the heck does ? I never knew we should discount the ability to steer while accelerating, merging , going up hills…etc. as a safety factor.

It is so dramatic, the difference where I live, we are completely inaccessible to fwd cars unless the road is heavily sanded during the winter months. You can have all the studded snow tires and experience you want, you can’t drive there. To a lesser extent, that advantage exists on all snow and ice covered roads…and it NEED NOT be deep snow.

Just last week I had a conversation with a local county deputy. He feels that the loss of Crown Vic’s are a blessing in desquise. They have begun to purchase more Awd/4wd SUVs. He and his family, feel much safer with he doing his job and law enforcement now has fewer boundarys in bad weather. It’s a no brainer in snow and on ice !

Every year when winter begins and I make these points, some one will counter with how good snow tires and experience is…they change the subject because that is a given when debating the advantages of Awd. Awd cars should have snow tires in snow and idiot drivers are fools driving and preparing any car poorly. IMHO, You will find that eventually, all cars will be equipped with Awd when we go to hub mounted electric drive. It’s a total no brainer in all driving conditions for control !

42
Yeah, I think the UP in Michigan is among the most with maybe 200". Buffalo I think is up there too.

NOPE…Upstate NY - north of Syracuse is the most. Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse all make the claim that they have more snow then any city it’s size or bigger…And all three are correct. Buffalo is the largest of the 3 so it’s snowfall is bigger then any other city in the US…but NOT Rochester or Syracuse because they are smaller cities…And Rochester is bigger then Syracuse. Syracuse holds the coveted Snow-Ball award. Buffalo’s and Rochester’s lake effect snow in January when Lake Erie freezes over. Lake Ontario never freezes over so Syracuse gets lake effect snow all winter long.

Upper Michigan gets a lot of snow too. But the big distinction is the area North of Syracuse called the Tug Hill Plateau. It’s a plateau about 2000’ in elevation just West of the Adirondack mountains and East of Lake Ontario. There are towns that average 300" year. Just down right nasty in the winter.

http://wnylakesnow.weebly.com/

43

Calumet, MI which is located in the Keweenaw Peninsula of the UP ( that little finger that sticks out into Lake Superior will accumulate well over 300" every year. Driving up highway 41 between Hancock and Calumet is like driving in a tunnel with a skylight.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1211&bih=722&q=snow+in+upper+michigan&oq=snow+in+upper+michigan&gs_l=img.3..0i24.1723.9068.0.11979.22.20.0.0.0.0.1166.1166.7-1.1.0…0…1ac.1.31.img…21.1.1165.LIesSGZxKFY

I spent a year in Hancock. When I got there in the fall, I asked why all the houses had a door on the second floor that didn’t go anywhere. They told me it was to get in and out in the winter, I thought they were joking, they weren’t.

Driving on all that snow really isn’t all that hard. The region is really hilly, the hills are steep but not very tall. I found it easier to drive up there than in the south where you are more likely to get an ice storm.

Glare ice only has about 1/3rd to 1/4th the traction coefficient of snow. I once drove across the state of Texas from El Paso to Shreveport, LA during an ice storm in a 66 Dodge wagon with limited slip rear end. 28 mph all the way, three days. Three long days.

Now I did admit to never driving an AWD, but once during a bad rain storm, the unpaved street in front of my home turned to gumbo and the building inspector got stuck right in front of my house in his brand new “full time 4WD” Chevy Blazer. I backed out of my driveway in that Dodge, stopped beside him, waved and then drove off.

I have also driven past AWDs in the ditch a number of times in whatever configuration I was driving at the time.

I will go back to my main point, if you overdrive your capabilities and/or your vehicles capabilities, you are going to get into trouble. That is true on ice, snow wet roads and even dry roads.

Modern AWD vehicles with winter tires may be more capable than any other combo, but for many that just means that they get into trouble at higher speeds. That is why I recommend RWD for beginning drivers in the snow belt. They will lose control (and they WILL lose control) at a lower, more survivable speed.

44

@Bing
How can you argue “against” Awd cars because they are more capable then anything else ? That’s like arguing against good handling sedans of any make on dry pavement because some one may just drive it faster and hurt themselves. That logic would lead me to argue against any good handling vehicle. ;=)

I recomend that teens lean to drive a Cat D4 dozer. They are slow, turn on a dime in any weather, and you can drive around all that carnage caused by all those Awd/4wd cars and trucks along the sides of the road.

45

I’m not arguing against AWD at all. Might buy one next time. Just not clear on how they react in a spin. I had to be very careful with my Olds RWD positraction on slippery roads because it could spin you around in no time. Great in snow but ice on the freeway was a problem.

Actually, my 67 Buick wagon was terrible on ice. I bought it to haul stuff from a girl whose husband took a hike and she needed to make a house payment. The guy used a welder on it all over, and the way the rear end behaved on ice, I always suspected he had welded the rear end gears.

46

Awd is designed to be as neutral in handling as possible in all conditions. That doesn’t make it fool proof but all the traction gizmos are enhanced with Awd and you get about as much help,as you can possibly get. When you throw in traction control, a rwd will just stop “going” to try to eliminate spin out while an Awd will shift the power between front and rear as much as possible as well as side to side and you can still steer, accelerate, merge, corner etc. while you are eliminating spin out. A fwd won’t spin out, it will just stop turning and /or start eliminating any power to the drive wheels on front. It has fewer options for the computer. With a modern Awd car or SUV, you can go an entire winter and not detect any wheel spin that would result in a spin out. But then, you could be going 90 around a corner, hit glare ice and your a gonna no matter what you drive.

47

A FWD will spin out.

48

I hear you Keith. I was referring also to a fwd car with stability, traction control. I mistakenly did not include the phrase " with traction/stability control" as I did with the other drive trains. Regardless, all cars when overwhelmed by traction lost during cornering can start to spin… Taking everything in context, if you read all f my statements, In most, not exceptional cases, stability, traction control does an excellent job of eliminating spin outs. Read my last statement…that infers nothing helps if the speeds and conditions are too great.
Yes, I have had fwd cars spin out, some on purpose SAAB two strokes while racing on ice. But, I have never had one or any car or truck do it since traction, stability control was added, regardless of drive train, unless I disabled the system.