@db4690, I thought it was obvious that I meant the people selling the cars out on the lot. Apparently not - so I literally meant the “Sales” division people who move cars off the lot. Not the “sales” staff that works in the “Service” division.
I feel bad for people who work in such a shop where they struggle to pay their bills. But I think making it out to be about lousing selling at the desk is a little narrow and extreme. Perhaps selling at the service desk is one of the reasons a guy in the back doesn’t get more work.
I can’t speak for the average customer. But like I said, I can smell “selling” from a mile away and once I catch a whiff I am out. More lost work for the guys in the back.
Here’s a slightly different angle. My 1986 Tempo had a blown rear shock at 100K miles (covered in fluid; others were dry). The dealer volunteered that I could just replace that ONE with a factory unit. The car drove fine for the next 30K miles I owned it.
The customer and the guys working at the shop (writers, mechanics, etc.) are always going to have different goals . . . and there are always going to be heated discussions on the topic on websites such as this
I don’t think that they should have different goals, or that their interests should be at odds. Barring complete idiocy - which will happen on either side of the desk - if you have a well-informed consumer on one side and competent and honest service on the other then that is win-win. Selling at the service desk, rather than informing and advising will screw that all up.
I’m not talking about nothing. One of the shops I use, on the rare occasion that I decide to use one, does exactly this. I have been in there many times over the years. I have also spent many hours in their waiting room over the years and seen them interact with an awful lot of other customers. Their SOP is to 1) understand the needs of the customer in both the narrow (car) and broad (as human beings with other things in life to also care for) sense, and 2) look at and deal with their car issues by explaining to them exactly what is going on and what their options are. They simply provide the ups and downs. They never push or “sell.” They patiently answer questions, and then wait to let the customer decide what he/she wants to do. That’s why I’ve been going back there for something like 20 years. Note that the same guys have been working there all of that time. There are no opposing goals and interests. Just an honest shop that does service rather than sales. And because they do that they sell plenty - very busy shop with tons of repeat business. Truly good service doesn’t need to be sold.
I understand your point about being told that no one else makes shocks/struts for your car, and I’m sorry you had a bad experience. I would prefer you would have been told that “No one else makes the same quality shocks for your car as we do.”
My apologies to @my2cents for being even more off-topic here, but as you can see that often happens in these fora.
"That’s actually one reason that I won’t go to shops anymore if it’s one of the places where I don’t talk to the actual person doing the work. (I get how this can be problematic for the shop). "
In that case you’re asking your mechanic to do 2 jobs for the price of one. It’s not really fair to the mechanic, and in many cases not possible or just plain bad practice. I have worked with guys who were “top-of-the-game, can fix anything anywhere” kind of guys and watched them go broke because they simply couldn’t talk to someone without getting pissed off. I worked with a fine mechanic who couldn’t sell water in the Sahara. “It’s $600 because it’s not just a plain brake job. Your axle seal is bad and ruined your brakes, you want it fixed or not?”
Here’s a general rule of thumb: if there are 3 people working in a shop, one of them is in the office full time and has nothing to do with fixing the car. That’s because every mechanic needs a half-time employee supporting him to be efficient.
When I worked in a well-run efficient shop (3 in the shop, 2 in the office), my productivity averaged 120%. When I worked in a shop without a service writer, it was 75%. That’s because the labor charges (and therefore my pay) was based on the time it took to work on the car, not talk to the customer when he dropped off the car, price out and order parts, sell the job, write up the invoice, etc.
I don’t view the service writer and his attempt to oversell services any differently than the salesman at Best Buy or Sears who tells me that I should purchase an $80 extended warranty on a $120 vacuum cleaner. The most ridiculous case–a few years ago–was when I was buying a very inexpensive electronic item at Best Buy (I can’t recall what the item was, but it was <$30.) The salesman actually tried to sell me an extended warranty on that item for…IIRC…$15.
Just as the principle of Caveat Emptor applies at an appliance store, it also applies in other places of business–including dealer service depts. and other car repair places.
I don’t know asemaster. I’ve been to plenty of shops that have been in business for a very long time where it’s pretty darned easy to talk to the person who is working on the car - the location of the knowledge and expertise. All of them have office staff, yes. But they are very open about the fact that the office staff had a lot less info about what is going on and are happy to have you talk to the person working on the car.
Oh there are lots of business models and pay plans out there, and now I call the shots and I don’t mind having a customer talk to me or one of the guys–within reason. I mean, I don’t care if your house is on fire, don’t stop what you’re doing until you finish torquing those wheels. And I understand the value when someone wants to hear something from the horse’s mouth. But the bottom line is if the technician isn’t working on the car he’s not making money. There are 8 hours in the workday, if you spend 30 minutes of that talking to a customer that’s 30 minutes money isn’t being made.
Many guys like that kind of atmosphere, it promotes a pretty nice workplace. But 15 years ago, if you wanted to talk to me about your car, I would have been pretty blunt. “I’m sorry, I don’t have time to talk to you. I have work to do and money to make. The guys in the office can help you.”
I have to respectfully disagree that a service advisor “selling” a service means that someone is trying to pull something. The SA is a necessary evil and there has to be someone to communicate with the customers. A mechanic working on flat rate is going to have a short fuse when he’s had to stop work for eleventeenth time in one day to carry on a gab fest; all for free. Gabbing shrinks the paycheck.
That carries over to many other professions. A long time friend of mine has a father who owns a well-established overhead door business. He has a rep who meets with individuals, home builders, construction companies, and lumber yards. His job (think of him as a service writer) is to determine what the customer needs on their home or building (think of those as vehicles) and let them know what is required and how much it will cost.
Would this guy be considered a crook for “selling service”? Not in my opinion.
Scenario
You bring your car to the shop because of a noise
You authorize x amount of dollars for diagnosis
The mechanic diagnoses the problem
The service writer sells you the repair
You guys should just read what I said about the shop that I’ve used a lot over the years. At some point, we’re all just talking about slightly different semantics on what it means to “sell.” And yes - in this context I am using the term “sell” as if it’s shameful and in the sense of trying to get over on a customer. Look at the context of this thread. I’m talking about every story you see here about how someone has been sold things they don’t need or otherwise cajoled into spending money they didn’t have to spend in a way that they didn’t need to spend it. You put a guy as the service desk whose job is to “sell” and that’s what you get. I’ve always seen them titled called “service advisers.” As well it should be.
And if you are going to stick me with only a service adviser to talk to rather than the one with the wrench, then for gosh sakes, make it someone who really does know what they are talking about. @ase, I do get the problem. Sometimes what I’ll have to remember is that while I am very sensitive to the mechanic’s time and space, most average customers probably are not. Despite the fact that I will only use a shop where it’s easy to talk to the guy wrenching, I rarely have occasion to need to talk to the guy wrenching.
I will mention that one of the shops I have sometimes used has a two layer “desk” system that I always thought worked pretty well. There’s the front office staff where most customers spend their time. These are people who don’t know a lot beyond knowing the basic kinds of services offered. Those folks do all of the busy work, and deal with the customers. But then there’s a sort of “shop floor supervisory” desk in the back. That desk is staffed by a guy who spent most of his life wrenching. So when a customer really needs to get to the expertise, they get sent to him. And it works. I’d say about 50% of the time I’ve ended up past the front desk, but only about 5% of the time have I had to end up at the guy with the wrench.
The most profitable years for me as a shop owner were when I had a well established clientele who trusted me and allowed me to use my best judgement with regard to repairing their cars and trucks. Some customers needed their vehicles repaired to like new condition until it was not economically worthwhile to do so while some vehicles were repaired as necessary to remain safe and reasonably reliable. Needless to say, ambulances and ambulatory patient vehicles and security vehicles got the utmost in preventive maintenance while local plumbers and landscape trucks could get by without replacing electronic modules, etc., until they failed.
The last 8 to 10 years in business might have been more profitable if I had pulled down my signs and gotten an unlisted number so that I could work without being interrupted by drop ins looking for the cheapest price or free advice.
And as for shocks and struts, I rarely replaced them. I replaced a great many more strut mounts and sway bar links than shocks.
I don’t think that they should have different goals, or that their interests should be at odds. Barring complete idiocy - which will happen on either side of the desk - if you have a well-informed consumer on one side and competent and honest service on the other then that is win-win. Selling at the service desk, rather than informing and advising will screw that all up.
I’m not talking about nothing. One of the shops I use, on the rare occasion that I decide to use one, does exactly this. I have been in there many times over the years. I have also spent many hours in their waiting room over the years and seen them interact with an awful lot of other customers. Their SOP is to 1) understand the needs of the customer in both the narrow (car) and broad (as human beings with other things in life to also care for) sense, and 2) look at and deal with their car issues by explaining to them exactly what is going on and what their options are. They simply provide the ups and downs. They never push or “sell.” They patiently answer questions, and then wait to let the customer decide what he/she wants to do. That’s why I’ve been going back there for something like 20 years. Note that the same guys have been working there all of that time. There are no opposing goals and interests. Just an honest shop that does service rather than sales. And because they do that they sell plenty - very busy shop with tons of repeat business. Truly good service doesn’t need to be sold.
The only shop I would use is exactly what you are talking about. I listed it years ago on CarTalk mechanic search. The present owner’s Grandfather and Granduncle opened it in 1924. The standard of the shop has always been “Honesty and Integrity”. The current Brothers still maintain this standard which is not common enough now days. For a bit of a chuckle their names are Tom and Ray! Unless something more serious (one time) was discovered I have always had their final bill be less than the estimate. They are by far the best I have ever experienced.
No. I’m not a hard a-- nor do I want to be seen that way. But I have been jerked around - a lot. So if expecting good and honest service where I have a good understanding of what is going on means I’m a hard a–, then call me that. Have I ever annoyed a shop? Sure. But only because I’m not going to stand there and shut up and “leave it to the experts.”
To be completely honest, if hadn’t been jerked around - a lot - then I wouldn’t be here on this site, and I still wouldn’t know anything about cars. I have figured stuff out and become a DIY’er largely because I got really tired of having to deal with people whose primary MO was to make money whether it simultaneously serves the interests of the customer or not.
And I still won’t ever use a shop where “Service writers are there to sell.” What I’m trying to tell you is that, IMHO, that IS what is wrong with a lot of auto service these days. Let the service writers be advisers. And let well informed customers decide on what they need to or want to buy. If you want to protect the mechanics from the customers then have service writers who know what they are doing so that they can provide accurate information and advice. That is what makes a business a good one. It doesn’t matter though if you want to keep saying that the job of a service writer is to sell. I have no idea where you are, but even if we were in the same town - I apparently won’t be using the shop you’re working in. As a consumer I think its well within by right to reject a business model set up on the idea that service writers should “sell” people on things. I’ll decide for myself whether or not I think my blinker fluid needs changing.
As far as I know, all service advisors are there to sell a service. Customer brings car in with complaint, mechanic advises service advisor of cause, service advisor contact customer and gives them the diagnosis and cost to fix. Where’s the problem?
If someone’s car is run into and that “service writer” at the body shop chalks up an estimate to repair are they also guilty of “selling”?
What about the guy someone calls out to look over a roof repair? Is that “service writer” also to be considered a crook for recommending a needed service?
@cigroller If you were in my town, I would use your services, on the other note, we had a new van, 10k miles, check engine light, now this dealer was willing to look at the car, and I turned down $600, as maintenance needed, coolant flush, tire rotation and balance, trans flush, alignment, brake rotors due to pitted rotors, and they only reset the light as it came back on shortly after.
Took it to the place we bought it from, 45 miles away due to fleet purchase program available from Credit Union, they replaced the rotors under warranty, replaced a pump that pressurized the system for CEL, said basically what to the other things stated as needed, different dealers treat people differently
I’m a civil service mechanic, so your car will literally not be in my work bay
Why’d you have to bring up the damn blinker fluid?
If you’ll reread my posts, you’ll see that I NEVER condoned fraud
I’ve known a few crooks in my time. There were mechanics who got paid to do a headgasket, yet they threw the new one in the trash or took it home, because they never replaced it.
There were parts guys who stole from the warehouse.
And there were guys who secretly worked at the shop on the weekend, without the boss’s permission and/or knowledge
These guys were eventually kicked to the curb, once they were exposed
There is a big difference between replacing shocks, when the old ones were greasy, yet still doing their job . . . versus selling a coolant drain and refill, yet never actually performing the work
I hope you don’t think I’m a shady mechanic, just because I defend the whole premise of the service writer selling work
I’ll still keep contributing to this website, even if you have a low opinion of me
By the way, I don’t have a problem with you . . . we merely don’t see eye to eye
@db4960 you have many great comments, now as I said I turned down imho unneeded work, but you have to understand the bell curve,and know how to interpret suggestions, I have seen nothing to implicate you as a shady mechanic, though I am a shady tree mechanic, I do not see the conflict, or any dispersion towards you.