I disagree with a couple of comments above that attempt to justify the flat rate pricing of dealerships.
Flat rate has been around for YEARS and it legal in every state I know of. It’s NOT just the dealers that use it…Every independent I know of uses the flat-rate system.
You should be aware that some jobs aren’t based on the flat hourly rate, at all. Instead, a price is charged “for the job”, which is not based on time or difficulty. It can be, simply, a gouge price.
In contrast, the flat hourly rate is based on what a mechanic, who is freshly experienced over several times, does the particular job under a stop watch.
From personal experience, on a somewhat complex job, the second time I do the job (in a short enough amount of time that I don’t forget much of the first time), my time is halved. The third time, almost halved, again. Further times, my efficiency improvements are a smaller percentage. So, there is an unavoidable range, and variance from the published flat-rate time, between mechanics in the same shop. The average time will be longer than the published times. Shop owners know this, and adjust the price to compensate. somewhat.
Mike,
I don’t know that we necessarily disagree. I know that the flat rate concept has been around for many years. It is legal as is MSP or “minimum selling price” that is applied by manufacturers to their products. I’m not so much in disagreement with the concept when it is applied to reasonable or fair operation times and fair hourly rates. My comments before were directed at hourly rates that appear to be excessive ie. $300/hr. I actually supported the flat rate concept when admitting that you can’t penalize an experienced mechanic for being able to do a job faster than his less experienced colleague. His superior efficiency benefits the shop, but it can’t be used unfairly. If a fumbling old man can change plugs in 1 hr. with a parts cost of roughly $50., can a dealer shop justify $350. for the same operation…overhead included? Are shop rates now inflated to $300/hr? In 1990 we saw rates we thought to be outrageous at $65/hr. Inflation is a beast, but $300/hr.? Suppose the flat rate book says 1.5 hours to allow for mistakes…that’s $200/hr. I have trouble putting $200/hr. and Fair in the same sentence. We’re not talking attorneys here…(Not that their rates should be considered universally fair). I guess I just feel that, if we retain a flat rate concept, we then have to address what is a reasonable hourly rate applied to that concept. Should there be a difficulty factor applied? Need to use specialty equipement that has to be amortized over time to justify capital expenditures by shops may be fair. But I doubt that one could use that arguement on a screw driver, a spark plug socket, and a rachet. This horse is about dead so I think I’ll get off with my continued thanks for the interchange of ideas.
In my experience as a Honda owner, I have found prices vary greatly between Honda dealerships for service. The best way to find out is to call at least three shops to get estimates and compare them. However, this isn’t a job that has to be done at a Honda dealership.
You say 1.5hrs is fair,how many hours did they want to charge? You paid 6.99 for plugs at a discount store likely cost is 12.99 at the Dealer. Is anyone suprised that you can get things done cheaper if you do it yourself? The Dealer is not in bussiness to break even he wants to make a very good profit,in fact he must make a very good profit.
$200/hr for a mechanic is OUTRAGEOUS. But I have seen as high as $120/hr. I WON’T pay it…but some people will. The average Independent rate here in NH is about $70/hr.
I’m a director of Software Development for a small Telecommunications company. I’m very well paid…I don’t make close to the $120/hr. We offer consulting services with the products we sell. These consultants are highly educated and very very smart engineers…and we don’t charge $120/hr for their services.
How do the dealerships justify that huge rate??? I don’t know. That’s why I do most work myself.
WHY would anyone go to a dealer to have spark-plugs changed??
I have answered this question before, but you keep asking it.
Here are some good reasons:
Sometimes it isn’t easy to find a good trustworthy independent mechanic. The last time I used one was in 1995 while I lived in South Florida and was driving an unreliable car. This guy was such a great mechanic that I sometimes had to wait up to two weeks for an appointment, which wasn’t practical. I wasn’t able to find another independent mechanic who was as good as this guy.
Perhaps the OP has a factory warranty or extended warranty in effect and he/she isn’t good at saving paperwork (or doesn’t want to be bothered with it).
It could be that the OP has a great relationship with the dealer’s service department in the hope of getting free “goodwill” post-warranty work. Sometimes showing loyalty to one particular dealership service department can pay off in goodwill.
Some dealership service departments have competitive rates. They don’t always cost more.
The mechanic would have probably made $20.00 before taxes to change those plugs,does that sound a little better?
In the end you asked for a quote they gave it and you declined. Some people pay it without a thought while others do it themselves, ignore the item(my wife) or pay an independent.
If that spark plug was near fused into the block most mechanics do not charge for excess aggravation or time to get them out.
What world are you in,everything gets charged for or at least I submitted the time sheet, many times it was rejected but I didn’t give anything away easy,I was at work to make money to live.
There’s an easy alternative to the flat rate labor system. Simply bill by actual time spent. That way a tech can spend an 8 hour day changing a set of plugs and bill the customer accordingly.
Those who think dealer flat rate hourly charges are high would likely change their tunes after 30 days if they had to sit down and cut the checks at the end of the month.
There’s a lot more to the labor charges than one would think. Those in the business understand this; those not in the business simply don’t.
And to add to oldschool’s comment about 20 bucks an hour; also subtract uniform payments (usually 1/2) and those annoying, perpetual, and not the least of which is expensive, payments each week to the guys running those tool trucks.
Although I have not had the personal pleasure, I’ve been told by friends that changing the left=rear plug on a 60’s GM muscle car with big-bore V-8’s required boring a hole in the inside fender well and using a very long socket extension. Having worked on big-engined Fords of that era, I can appreciate the plausibility of that.
Your friends an idiot. I’ve owned a couple GM 60’s muscle cars…327, 350 and even a 427…Sorry but that’s NOT true. Those engines are far easier to work on then most modern day vehicles…All the room. No pollution control devices…most didn’t have AC…
You did have to cut a hole in the firewall to replace the Heater Core though.
Your friends an idiot.
Mike:
Don’t you think there’s a more effective way of saying your experiences were different?
I am getting the same kind of treatment from Mike myself.Pollution devices on todays cars do not make working on them difficult, they are mostly engine mods and electronic controls. Mike is stuck in the days of 70’s type pollution controls,clearly lacking current experience,except from the owners manual of his personal vehicles.
- Sometimes it isn’t easy to find a good trustworthy independent mechanic.
Unless you live in Upper North Dakota where the closest city of 10k is 100+ miles away…it’s NOT difficult to find a good reputable mechanic.
- Perhaps the OP has a factory warranty or extended warranty in effect and he/she isn’t good at saving paperwork (or doesn’t want to be bothered with it).
Since when is spark-plugs a WARRANTY item. Even extended warranties don’t cover spark-plugs.
- It could be that the OP has a great relationship with the dealer’s service department in the hope of getting free “goodwill” post-warranty work. Sometimes showing loyalty to one particular dealership service department can pay off in goodwill.
Let’s see…pay 2-3 times what an Independent will charge for the same service…Yup…makes sense to me.
- Some dealership service departments have competitive rates. They don’t always cost more.
I’ve yet to find one. Dealer labor rates are 2-3 times the independents no matter where I lived for the past 35+ years of driving. I’m sure you can find an independent who’s prices are very very high…But I’ve yet to find a dealer who’s prices are low. Dealer rate (ALL DEALERS) here in Southern NH are a minimum of $100/hr…some as high as $120/hr.
Sorry Old Guy…WRONG AGAIN…what else is new.
Pollution devices on todays cars do not make working on them difficult,
Reading comprehension problem…Please show me where I said todays cars are difficult to work on!!!..I’ll wait…
What I SAID…was that cars of the 60’s were far easier to work on because of the lack of things like Pollution controls and things like AC…I NEVER EVER said cars of today are difficult to work on. Some surely are…when they cram a engine with all it’s electronics and plumbing into a tight space. Cars from the 60’s…I could SIT in the engine compartment to work on the engine.
I guess you’ve NEVER worked on a muscle car from the 60’s…
Don’t you think there’s a more effective way of saying your experiences were different?
I think Mike’s methods are quite effective. He says what he means and means what he says. I DO think there are more thoughtful and polite ways to communicate his ideas, but not necessarily more effective.
Oldschool, we all get treated that way by Mike eventually. Nobody can post here regularly and avoid his short-tempered scorn forever. Eventually, we all find ourselves at the receiving end of his unyielding attitude. Try not to take it personally.
He did say todays cars are hard to work on because of pollution controls,he did say it in a backwards way by saying old cars are easier to work on due to the lack of pollution controls “all the room no pollution control devices”
It is just a Internet Forum nothing to take personally.
I have read poor advive from Mike many times but only felt compelled to correct him when he misquoted me directly. He should stick to telling people what cars hold 5 adults more comfortably and leave the technical advice to people with real experience.
He should stick to telling people what cars hold 5 adults more comfortably and leave the technical advice to people with real experience.
Stick with what you know oldy…Not what you THINK you know.
I have read poor advive from Mike many times but only felt compelled to correct him when he misquoted me directly.
SHOW ME…I’ll wait…
I have read poor advive
I know…poor advise is when someone DISAGREES with you. Just because you’re OLD doesn’t mean you’re mature. Maturity goes a long ways oldy…