ank, I don’t know why Costco is giving you a hard time over this. I would avoid the TA’s as they are noisy and don’t offer very good traction. The Michelin tire you first mentioned is carried by Costco in the V rating and they should be able to get them in a day or two and really would be the best all around tire for your vehicle.
Most common vehicle are govern to a maximum speed set by the VSS. Vehicle Speed Sensor. My Toyota speedometer reads up to 120mph but, the VSS won’t let me get pass 108mph before it kicks in the makes the engine miss. Speedo’s are just feel good stuff. I don’t think your car will get much pass 100mph so H’s are more then enough. Ask any quality mechanic about the VSS and how it works.
The OP has the XT variant of the Outback. It has the same Turbocharged 2.5L I4 as the WRX. It’s considerably quicker and more powerful that the normally aspirated Outback. It came with V rated tires from the factory, even though it’s top speed is electronically limited to 130 MPH. Now why would the engineers bother with V rated tires when an H rated tire would suffice given the car is limited to 130 MPH? The answer is because the engineers decided that the car would have optimal handling/braking with stickier V rated tires. For that reason if I were the OP, I’d go with what the manufacturer recommendations. With that said though, using H rated tires probably won’t result in any earth-shattering catastrophe.
I’ve used Costco several times for tires and have no complaints, I have heard of them giving people a hard time for deviating from the manufacturer’s specs in respect to speed ratings, but nothing to the extent of what the OP is experiencing. I would think a wavier of liability would enough to placate both parties.
@Hiroshi The VSS isn’t what causes your car to stop accelerating at 108 MPH. That’s a function of the ECU. The ECU will get information from the VSS. But the VSS itself doesn’t pull spark from ignition or cut the injectors or anything. Also as mentioned above, the OP’s XT model is much faster than the standard non-turbo model. It can easily exceed 100 MPH.
Let me ask a question: why do you suppose the manufacturer would go to the trouble of specifying a tire with a speed rating of 149 mph? Especially when a more readily available tire has a speed rating only 19 mph less @ 130 mph and almost no one will ever come close to the lower speed rating anyway?
Perhaps, just perhaps, the speed rating is not just a speed rating. I suspect that it combines a number of factors but when it was derived, defining it as a speed rating was a means to help consumers more readily choose an appropriate tire. However, since then, performance demand has increased to the point this rating is now some astronomical value that seems to make no sense to the consumer anymore.
I’d suggest that few people (myself included) on here are tire experts, maybe one and he’s not weighed in. Suggesting that someone ignore SPECIFIED ratings when you have absolutely no basis for such a recommendation is doing a disservice to those seeking guidance.
What I find curious is why someone would forego waiting a short period for the right tire and instead spend that time looking for excuses why not to use the right tire and then drive around looking for a dealer that will sell them a tire that doesn’t meet specifications? You could probably have the correct tires already installed by now. It’s no emergency right? Drive around a couple more days on your current tires, what’s the problem?
Even if it was an emergency and you’d be without the car, most larger tire dealers can get the correct tire in a day or two at most. Instead, you can choose to install the wrong tire today and then live with the unknown risks…doesn’t make sense to me.
Then there’s this issue
Does Costco see the merits in selling the snob appeal? Losing a few bargain shoppers can be accepted if a greater profit can be realized by selling only the best(?).
The Michelin Premier is available in both H and V speed ratings. Both have identical ratings for wear, traction and temperature.
Here’s what any quality mechanic will know. If you’re driving your car and you skid around a curve, lose control and roll down a hillside, the insurance company will investigate the crash and see that the crash MAY have been caused by having tires that are of lesser quality than Subaru specifies for that car. And who do you think the lawyers are going to hold responsible for you having inadequate tires on your car? The guy who bought them or the guy that sold and installed them, a professional who should have known better?
Like I said, it’s your car and your money. You can put whatever tires you want on. But don’t complain about a shop refusing to lower the quality of their work to match the condition of your wallet.
Well this is deja vu all over again
It’s a shame, but possibly a fitting shame that the tire companies’ efforts to differentiate a product and sell it at a significantly higher price with little actual benefit results in them being the target of litigation.
@asemaster:
I fail to see how H-rated tires are insufficient to control a Subaru during any lawful operation on any public roadway on the USA…the presumption when buying non-racing tires should be “not intended for illicit ops.”
Keith said: “…I don’t know why Costco is giving you a hard time over this. …”
In our litigious society, anyone in business is vulnerable to being sued - and tire shops are no exception. A sharp lawyer can turn this into a good lawsuit - and those can be expensive, even if each one is settled before it hits the courtroom.
BTW, it is my understanding (IANAL) that an individual can NOT sign away his rights - nor can a business avoid responsibility by having a customer sign a waiver - that the “expert” (in this case, the tire shop) remains responsible regardless.
I think the misunderstanding here is that people think that the speed rating is just about how fast you can go on the tire. If that were true then most people could use an S or T rated tire. The real issue is the handling characteristics of the tire and how they are incorporated into the handling characteristics of the car. Car company engineers designed your car to work with a tire with very specific handling characteristics. Safety margins and emergency handling were all built around this.
A very smart mechanic once told me something that I will always remember. NEVER skimp on tires and brakes. Tires are the only thing touching the road and brakes are the most important thing for stopping. Both are the most important safety equipment for avoiding accidents. If a set of tires costs you an extra $200 for the proper speed rating and lasts at least two years then you are saving less than $10 per month to compromise your safety (and the safety of your family) by downgrading. If you must save money buy cheap wiper blades, spark plugs, and floor mats. But don’t buy cheap tires. Your family and loved ones are too important.
Speed ratings are NOT just there to help consumers choose. Speed ratings are required by the federal Department of Transportation (D.O.T.) and determined by federally mandated and federally approved testing by spinning the tire until failure… until it self destructs.
Car manufactures choose the OEM tires based upon the car’s capabilities, the desired handling characteristics, and the quest for good mileage (motivated by the federal Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency [CAFE] standards). The CAFE standards penalize manufacturers who exceed the mandated average mileage. The OEM tires will always exceed the capabilities of the vehicle, but that does not make them meaningless. Going from an ultra high performance rating to a lower rating may (note that I said MAY, not WILL) affect the car’s handling some. Whether that’s meaningful to you is highly subjective.
Yes, you can put H rated tires on the car safely, as they’ve tested safe at speeds exceeding the car’s maximum. However, handling may be adversely affected some. Some shops and some companies have, to protect themselves from lawsuits, made a decision not to allow their bead busters to put tires of a lower speed rating than the OEM tires. It’s prudent on their part to do so.
This reminds me of a young girl who worked with me and was on the jury of a law suit against a railroad company. The plaintiff was a mother with several kids, one or more died and the mother was severely injured when she drove around the gate and into the path of a train. The jury felt sorry for the now disabled mother who lost some of her kids and felt that although she was at fault she had nothing while the railroad wouldn’t miss a few million to help her out. I was amazed.
@meanjoe75fan what you or I understand is completely irrelevant, as is the lawful operation of the car or the ability of the driver to negotiate a corner.
A car misses a turn, wrecks on a hillside and the driver says the car simply would not steer where he wanted it to. An investigator looks at the whole scene and asks, among other things, “Are the correct tires on the car?” The answer is “no.” “Are the tires of a higher rating or lower rating than Subaru specified for the car?” The answer is “lower.” Now what?
Subaru (or anyone else) tries to make tire replacement very simple by placing a decal on the car that specifies exactly the size, load rating, and speed rating of the tire that they have determined is the proper fit for the car. Some models may even specify a different rating based on trim package. A Pacer DX and Pacer LX may take a H rated, and a Pacer HX may take a V rated.
Having said that, I have replaced original tires with a speed or load rating that is lower than specified. But the customer is made aware of the differences, and I wouldn’t do it for a customer I didn’t know. Some placed may not want to take on that liability.
@bloody_knuckles In this case the price difference is more on the order of $20-$40 total.
Often, but not always, H and Z tires of the same make and model have identical tread design and handling. At times the price difference is very small. In those cases I have no problem substituting, and have done it. This is very different than going to T or S rated tires, which will handle differently.
@asemaster Not always. There is the notorious case in Texas some time back where a drunk driver going nearly 100 mph missed a turn and piled into a tree, killing him, but his wife survived, sued Ford and got $3million in damages.
It turns out that the tires on this car, a midsize Ford were not rated for that speed, and there was no warning in the owner’s manual about this!!! The standard Ford tires in those days were rated for 85 mph.
Yes, you can put H rated tires on the car safely, as they’ve tested safe at speeds exceeding the car’s maximum. However, handling may be adversely affected some.
Ah, I see. So in your qualitative assessment, some degree of compromise on the handling is acceptable. What do you base this assessment on? Can you be more specific as to what level of compromise is acceptable and why? These are actually intended as rhetorical questions to illustrate my point.
If I’m not mistaken, you have been one of the more vocal proponents of proper tires since all that is holding the car to the road are four small patches the size of your palm, a position I am in wholehearted agreement with you. So I find it confusing why you would advocate compromising on a performance aspect of the SPECIFIED tire when it is in fact, quite easy and really not that expensive to simply comply with it.
We’re not talking about getting away with something 99% of the time. It’s more about that unanticipated 1% that requires the full performance of the specified equipment to help keep someone from harm. Saying handling could (I’m betting would) be adversely affected in the same breath as it is safe to do so seems counter-intuitive to me.
Taking on risk for yourself is one thing. Telling someone else to do the same with little or no scientific basis or evidence to support it is another…
Relax, TT. Have a cup of tea. Breath deeply.
You’ve taken my comment entirely out of context, totally changing it’s meaning. It was part of a description of why some stores won’t put tires of lesser speed ratings on cars whose OEM tires were ultra high performance tires. It isn’t a statement advocating the use of lower speed rated tires.
I’m not going to take your bait and get dragged into a useless fight, so you might as well just calm down.
The difference in handling between H and V versions of the same model tire will very likely be much less than the difference between two different V rated tires.