http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/refinery.html
check this out for a visual about how petroleum is ACTUALLY made from crude.
it is NOT a selection of ‘what we want to make today’ petroleum is made one way, and all types are made with each batch that is refined.
the problem is not bashing a company to make more, or look for more. it is about reducing our ‘need’ for exhorbitant amounts, in wasteful use.
Can anyone please explain why the price of clean diesel is about 5 cents per gallon more in Europe and $.80 and rising more per gallon than gasoline in the US?
And why Toyota and other Asian car drivers are producing clean diesels for sale in Europe but not the US? The answer I get from Toyoto is the US government is stalling. Something isn’t right here. I noticed the VW Jetta EPA ratings for the TDI were significantly lower than all 3 of the reviews I read on the vehicle as far as reviewer actual mileage, and I’ve also noticed a “fair and balanced” independent test company had concurred with the reviews instead of the EPA. Yet, most of us who have bought new gasoline vehicles are not 100% happy with the accuracy of the EPA ratings as they seem inflated. (yes I know about real world driving and I would suggest the EPA enforce “real world conditions”, anything else, seems just wrong …)
I estimate 85% of the new vehicles sold in Europe are diesel today from what I see and what I rent throughout Europe, doubling mpg and liters/100km from most gasoline vehicles used in the USA. Yes, I know about the cracking process. I also know that in countries like Brazil, it costs about $.80 per gallon to produce low sulphur diesel from corn, soybean, or even weed oil. Ok, not fair, there are costs with creating oil from the vegetables. But, the usage is sustainable and not harmful to the environment.
I’m not bashing a company. I bashing an industry that in my opinion seems to have feed corruption in government, has a horrible record of poluting the earth, and acts often without regret, or withou remorse, and fights to the bitter end legally to pay the true costs of accidents and neglect.
Yes, maybe big oil has the right to do what it wants as a private enitity. In that case, I hope to see (when we do convert to diesel vehicles) the same curiosity I see in other parts of the world. Farmers growing corn oil from land that was not suited for food production because it had been polluted and converting production into ethanol and diesel themselves for sale. Imagine that, small oil companies. In Brazil it’s been a fact of life for 20 years. One could fuel most automobiles from the local liquer store as a last resort.
Despite all said in this heated debate there is a common thread that yes, we need to cut back usage, granted, a large part of Americans are downright wasteful. But we also deserve to be protected from an industry that has shown us they are willing to do anything to maintain their global control of the fuel oil market. Including (my belief) influencing foreign policy to act in harmony with big oil interest not citizen or consumer interest (as was I believed the purpose of government - for the people and buy the people.) I’m a die hard patriot of this country, but I’m not proud of some on our foreign and domestic policy that seems dicated by a particular industry and a particular lobby. At one point, I said I was angry, I am merely disappointed.
I’ve learned a lot from all of your responses. I read a lot of mis-information as well.
And frankly if you all don’t agree with me at least in principle, please, let me know. I’ll glady move on to another country that quite frankly, gets it, and isn’t living in denial, writing out of anger, driving their gas guzzling SUVs, or putting in there 2cents worth because they work for the oil industry. If you work for the oil companies, quite frankly and quite fairly, you are prejudiced and your input is worthless. I’m not picking on your opinion, merely stating that perhaps you are influenced and I’d honestly like to ask people to mention the industry they work in if they are going to continue to bash me personally.
Finally, I bring up one other point. We need to put SUV’s into the category of automobiles regarding required fuel efficiency. No more exemptions. It’s not fair.
For those of you that so vehemently disagree with me, it’s your right. I won’t object, I’ll do my part. I can’t ask you to change. I can ask you to please, open your minds and look around. What can you do to make the world a better place. And spewing arguements you’ve heard from certain news channels is not a contribution. Let’s try and unify and get along. I for one am very tired of the division in this country and I hope we can all make efforts to see each other’s perspective.
super in germany (this mornings price, my son lives there)
1.6 euro per liter. = $2.70 per liter = X .26 = $10.20 per gallon.
so where do you see the great savings in europe?
yes there is about a .05 E (or round .07c difference in diesel, but at 10 bucks a gallon who really cares how much the difference is.
and don’t forget that the european countries are WAY more taxing than we are.
i think that your logic comparing the europe prices is skewing your view here. it’s like comparing apples to oranges.
they pay LOTs more than we do for everything, but you want us to emulate their auto controls? it doesn’t make sense.
where did you get the facts about venezuela making diesel from soybean and corn oil for .80c per gallon? that must be something new. never heard of it. it only costs around .45c per gallon to make diesel from crude. so you want us to copy venezuela’s petrochemical production and use up MORE edible food stuff to make diesel which costs twice as much as it costs here?
i think you may be confusing facts from ‘facts’ supplied by the chavez regime, who (like kimjong ill) wouldn’t tell the truth if you stuck him with a lance!
BTW, the last time i was in venezuela gas was .48 cents a gallon (this was three years ago) but that was not realistic pricing, that was govt sponsored, supported prices for venezuelans. how do i know? i asked the taxi driver.
he said the gas prices used to be .20 per gallon and everyone got indignant when chavez tripled the price.
Europe gets some of our refined diesel because they are willing to pay for it. Including their higher fuel taxes, they pay about $8/gal retail, while we pay only $5. I turn my back the best I can on fuel prices by biking to work, saving the autos for occasional weekend pleasure drives. Not a boycott really… Just another average slob looking out for numero uno in a relatively capitalist environment.
Regarding Europe’s diesels - the taxes on diesel fuel are lower than on gas, resulting in diesel costing less than gas. Regarding the large sales of ‘clean’ diesels in Europe, they’re not so clean. They aren’t for sale here because of their high particulate emissions, which some studies say are very bad for health. Finally, regarding biofuels - they have been termed a ‘crime against humanity’, because of their impact on grain prices, and the razing of tropical forest in, for example, Indonesia for palm oil and (to cite your example) Brazil for sugar cane. How is this a good thing?
One thing seems clear to me. Gas will never be cheap again. So, then, what does an adult do? Whine? Blame? Nope. Here’s what he does: He stands up on his hind legs and accepts the obvious fact that no one was ever born with the right to cheap gas in the first place. He deals with it. There is not a single one of us who can’t make adjustments to the new reality. Drive less, get a more efficient car, budget more for gas and less for something else. Its time to quit crying and ‘MAN UP!’
If you want to take action, boycotts may not be totally possible, but these 3 things would help. #1 Share discover and with others the truth (information) you have found. The best thing is to share the truth to undo the propaganda the oil companies have put out. High gas prices create the kind of pressure they like. No coincident that they are again pushing for drilling off-shore and the wildlife refuges of Anwar. People who would not accept off-shore drilling before may now say YES, Sacrifice it all, just bring back lower priced gas. YES who cares about wildlife in Alaska, just give me relief at the pump. The reality is not being shared. Discover it and share the truth and the resources for that truth.
#2. Conserve Gas. We may not be able to give up ALL use of our cars right now, but wee all can drive less and more responsibly.
#3 Support initiatives to better community design the require less driving, offer more public transportation, and alternatives… like walking.
Stop driving - switch to electric - bla bla bla. Until I can go down to my local HYugo dealer (you’ll get it later) and pick up a new wind powered, all electric, latte emission minibus I have to buy and use gasoline. I will pay the price on the pump and do it every day. B.O. says drilling won’t fix the problem today! He must be a genius!!! Don’t get me wrong we had better be looking for cleaner more efficient means of transportation, better fuels, alternate fuels and anything else we can think of. But we will be using petroleum fuel to get to the lab today. Drilling today will lower prices today. Don’t think it won’t. As soon as OPEC sees that we are actually doing something, price action will happen. But we have to actually be doing something. So we will never know will we? Our action can be environmentally responsible if we want it to . But like most controversial issues we get bogged down in emotion laden politics. We cry and we stagnate. So, like I say, we will pay pump price today and tomorrow. Go ahead, feel helpless.
Boycott Big Oil? Hummm… Well maybe not boycott exactly but how about informed purchasing. You need to buy gas today. Where should you buy it? If we had good information we could make informed decisions. We need a good forum nationwide to disclose oil company information. Who are they? Who owns them? The website is a great idea! We need to compile relevant information. I’ll start. I hear that CITGO is a Venezuelan oil company. Have you seen the “neighborhood” adds by CITGO? Damage control because of our bud Hugo Chavez. Remember him - hates the USA? Oh wait - they all hate the USA. Where do you want your money to go?
Don’t get me started on the car makers. Remember the EV1? (Electric Vehicle 1) GM killed it because it was “too clean”. There were no air filters, no oil filters, no oil. Google it. Fascinating history. See the movie “Who Killed the Electric Car”. OK - NOW it’s a good idea!
And frankly if you all don’t agree with me at least in principle, please, let me know. I’ll glady move on to another country that quite frankly, gets it…
I don’t agree with you in principle. Enjoy your new homeland. It was nice knowing you.
I don’t agree with you either. Bon voyage!
You mean differing viewpoints are all it takes to make you give up your homeland? In that case, I don’t agree with you, not even in principle.
The way I understand it, most convenience stores buy from various refineries and consumers have no control over who they buy from. They buy in bulk, of course, so they keep the refineries going no matter what we consumers do.
I HAVE seen [on TV] owners who converted their diesel vehicles to run on vegetable oil. Then, they can fill up behind any local restaurant. But most people don’t know how or are unable or unwilling to go to that trouble.
I HAVE seen [on TV] owners who converted their diesel vehicles to run on vegetable oil. Then, they can fill up behind any local restaurant. But most people don’t know how or are unable or unwilling to go to that trouble.
The vehicles do NOT run on vegetable oil. The vegetable oil is converted through a refining process to a Bio Diesel. You can’t just take vegetable oil and pour it in your gas tank and expect to run.
Even the amateurs who do this, have to filter the stuff first, and then still mix it with regular diesel. In addition, they need fuel heaters in cold weather. It takes a skilled mechanic/engineer or similar person to get any degree of reliability out of a vegetable oil driven machine. Older VW diesels are the most tolerant of the stuff.
Consumers have done precisely what you recommend, even without a website. Hugo Chavez has alienated enough people that Citgo owners are feeling the pinch. As has been said here already, oil is fungible so PVDSA (the company that owns Citgo) isn’t feeling this at all. They export less to the USA, but all that means is that they export more elsewhere.
Like everyone else, they are making record profits for the simple reason that the demand for oil is high, and growing. What we are seeing at the pump is classic market economics, not market manipulation.
Unlike PVDSA, Citgo owners aren’t making record profits. In fact, their current radio advertising in NYC is specifically aimed at people boycotting Hugo Chavez’ regime, stating “all you are hurting are local people, and the local economy.”
Most people subscribe to the “if you sleep with dogs, you’re going to get fleas” mentality. Citgo owners have known about Chavez for a long time, and could have re-branded in the past years.
Absurd solution to boycott one refiner. Best is to reduce consumption by at least 15 percent. Oil companies make about 9 percent on their product. They make their huge income statement profits by FIFO accounting methods. First In First Out cost of crude they buy on the world market. If crude is $100 on week one of their purchase and a week later is $125, all inventory including gasoline reflects the $125 price. Consistent with their practices for many years and IRS compliant. Means that skyrocketing crude costs show up at the pump in a few weeks. Same going down and that happened when crude fell to something like $10. Oil companies got hammered and I don’t remember any consumer complaint. USA 2006 cars, SUV’s, PU’s, vans consumed 136,000,000,000 gallons of gasoline of which 70 percent is from imported crude. USA is a buyer in a sellers market. You voted it that way by ballot and by dollars spent on vehicles and fuel. The Fed helped in this debacle by devaluing the dollar via overnight interest rates. Producers were not about to accept devalued dollars and simply hiked prices. A problem proudly Made in the USA. Next on the Political villain list is speculation. Specifically about 30 percent of US crude futures trading is through InterContinental Exchange in London. Not regulated till agreement last week. Our Politicans are hunting for scapegoats and ICE is it for now. Anything to distract the Peasants from the real underlying supply and consumption problem. A very easy task.
“The vehicles do NOT run on vegetable oil. The vegetable oil is converted through a refining process to a Bio Diesel. You can’t just take vegetable oil and pour it in your gas tank and expect to run.”
why not, some think water can miraculously get us unlimited mpg so why wont this work?
Actually, there are plenty of folks running diesel engines on straight WVO, heated WVO, WVO mixed with diesel fuel, etc. Personally, I wouldn’t do it but there are folks with many miles on vegi-oil.
Roman emperors bribed the proletariat with “Panum et Circensus”, cheap or free bread and free games in the Colosseum. Chavez does likewise; a friend of mine worked there before the “gringos” got booted out and used to fill his tank for $5! If Chavez raised the gas prices, the locals might revolt.
As mentioned, everything else there is expensive in terms of earning power, since Venezuela makes very little in the way of sophisticated goods.
Amen to Craig’s summation of reality! From here on in we can no longer be dumb, fat and happy, no matter what our politicians tell us. The US is part of the Global Village, and living in isolation is no longer an option, if indeed, it ever was.