Exxon/Mobil is the largest and most blatant violator.
If you believe an automobile can run on water without a huge machine that can break the water down to oxygen and hydrogen (which would take more energy than running the car), I do have a nice used bridge over the Charles River to sell you. The EPA, AAA, other government agencies and Consumer Reports have determined that all products that promise better gas mileage is a SCAM! The only way to improve gas mileage is to follow the tips from the Car Talk guys or other respectable sources, or ride a bike.
The Mr. Magoo comment came because I realized the OP in this thread wasn’t interested in differing viewpoints, even the ones that were quite profound. I was suggesting his eyes were colosed to new ideas. I bet he is one stubborn dude…not unlike myself I suspect.
The reason I mentioned this was yardie’s first post is that I see a lot of spam on this site regarding fuel prices these days. I wonder if it is coincidence his first post was used to promote a commercial web site. Almost all of the spam I have seen here comes from new users.
It is not the Oil companies job to invest profits into finding more Oil! They are not in the welfare business! They are in the business to maximize shareholder value. And right now it might be best to do that with share buybacks and dividend increases.
These companies owe you nothing quit whining and pay up.
Windmill tilting anyone?
Out of order. You sir, from my perspective, are so misinformed that it would be best for all of us if you just kept your perspective between your ears, as you probably have stopped using your ears some time ago. Welfare business? Last I check, welfare was not a business. These companies owe us responsible behavoir. Is it responsible to take out the US auto industry (granted they are out of touch), but ethics (ever hear that word???) dictate that you never kick a man who is down. I hope you sir, are the very first one affected.
Nice to see you are so ethical that you can wish misfortune on others. Isn’t that “out of order”? The way you quash dissenting opinions leads me to believe you would fit in well in the Bush whitehouse.
A corporation’s commitment to its shareholders IS an ethical issue. It would be unethical to lie to or mislead shareholders and other stakeholders. Ethics are not supposed to be situational. You, sir, are a sophist…a fallacious reasoner.
Most businesses, both corporations and small businesses, set their minimal ethical standards at the same level as the law. To them, if it is legal, it is ethical. That seems like a reasonable benchmark, doesn’t it? So the best way to raise their ethical standards is probably to pass a new law.
and YOU, my good man are exactly why this question has been running ad nauseum!
the big picture is: the oil industry is Neither dependent on us for making these decisions, nor are they subject to your whims, or fanciful ideas of right and wrong.
ethics has nothing to do with it.
the corporate greed is unfortunate, but until and unless we ALL stop buying dinosaur juice, the big oil companies won’t get it.
alternative power is the way to go. but, again, until it is developed to a usable, reliable and efficient amount of infrastructure… don?t hold your breath.
you specifically didn’t like my analogy about oil tankers, but it is true. all these oil companies, oil merchants, dealers, and speculators are in a self supporting, symbiotic relationship which you and i will not change. even jim the mechanic (who owns gas stations) is not aware of the interconnection of petroleum distributors, the swapping of fuel and gas amongst distributors. so how could you understand the size and depth of the problem.
the ‘seven sisters’ were broken up early in the last century. however, the real way the oil industry works has remained largely unchanged. huge corporations do exactly what they want (al la enron) and ‘our’ only effective response is to stop using ALL of them.
did you really think you EVER had (since you have to have it before you lose it) ANY control to ‘monitor and punish’ as you so naively desire? why not try to monitor and control mcdonalds. any luck there? how about dunkin donuts. they are killing more americans each year than the iraq war is!
you want to find a web site to vote? how about donate to your local US congressman, and senator. start a relationship with them. and get THEM to start something. that MAY do some good. but if you feel better, boycott exxon mobil.
There are a (large) number of misconceptions and errors floating around this thread.
- Oil companies make outrageous profits. Wrong, ExxonMobil made about 10% profit last year, less than Microsoft (over 20%), less than Proctor and Gamble (about 13%). Is it a big #, dollar-wise? Of course, they are a big company.
- Oil companies control the price of oil. Wrong. Thirty years ago oil companies produced about 70% of the world’s oil, now it’s less than 20%. National oil companies, such as Pedevesa, Petrobras, and Aramco, produce 80% of the world’s oil. They have much greater control over supplies and price.
- Outrageous profits are being made on gasoline. Wrong. Crude oil costs over $3/gallon now, so that leave $1/gallon to process, ship, sell, and pay taxes (about $0.50/gallon, fed/state/income).
- Oil companies aren’t doing anything to help. Wrong. The drilling rigs in the US and worldwide are fully occupied drilling as many wells as they can.
- Oil companies have millions of acres of land they’re ignoring. Wrong. All potentially productive land in the US is being looked at time and again for attractive drilling targets. Just because land is leased doesn’t mean there’s oil under it.
- Oil companies are ‘evil’. Wrong, there’s just companies, like any other. If they didn’t make a profit they’d be out of business. If they are breaking laws, don’t you think there would be 100 regulators and lawyers right on top of them? If they’re manipulating the price of crude/gas/diesel, don’t you think the auto/airline/whatever industries would be pushing for investigations and penalties?
None of us like $4/gallon, but stop looking for scapegoats - look in the mirror!
I now take the train as much as posible. I exercise more and use my bicycle whenever possible. My next car will be a gas saver, hopefully a hybrid. The expense of the hybrid may not be economically feasible.
I slowed down when I do drive. I concentrate on MPG Miles Per Gallon. I start slow and creep up to speed when necessary. I do not draft, I have tried, but the lead car is usally driving too fast. It is such a different mindset from pushing the speed limits, getting from point A to Point B as quicks as possible, and hollering at the cars in front of me “Hey explextive deleted”, “Can’t you get out of your own way”! Maybe I can only squeeze another MPG out of the car.
The day has long passed when I will trust what another Texan says as the “truth” about oil. I don’t waste energy, I’m looking at you, not me. Thinking you are the SUV driver and living in denial.
Big oil rules, the rest of US industry are caught between a rock and hard place. Things will change. When the Texan is asked to vacate the premises and a person of clearer mindset (and hopefully less prone to exageration of what is or is not a misconception) becomes our next elected leader. Trust in another Texan about oil, I’d sooner move to France.
I’m eagerly awaiting facts, rather than assertions. We all must conserve, but don’t think that the US (or ‘Big Oil’) runs things anymore. The rest of the world now is determining the future of oil and gas, with skyrocketing consumption not about to ease up any time soon.
The overall increase in the cost of a barrel of crude oil has been adequately addressed here already. Okay, here’s one important new item that hasn’t been brought up yet:
What drives up the cost of diesel relative to the cost of gas is the ratio of diesel to gasoline use compared with the ratio of diesel to gasoline production, the latter of which is pretty much constant. Let me explain: Say, for example, that when you refine a barrel of sweet, light crude, you get half as much diesel as gasoline, because that’s the relative fraction of various hydrocarbons in the crude (I actually don’t know what the ratio is, but it doesn’t matter), and the price of diesel is about the same as the price of gasoline. Now, if lots of people switch from gas cars to diesel cars, what is going to happen to all the extra gasoline in the market? Are they going to pour it down the drain? No, of course not. The relative price of diesel will go up and the relative price of gasoline will go down automatically according to the law of supply and demand.
P.S. – I live four miles from work (up a really big hill), and I commute year-round, in rain and snow, on a regular bike or an electric bike, with studded snow tires. I am not a “spring chicken” – just an average guy who is not grossly overweight. Even with the rising cost of electricity and having to replace batteries, the electric bike costs WAY less than operating a car – even a hybrid car. I have fenders, mud flaps, and good rain gear, so I don’t show up at work all messy. No problem! Please make responsible personal choices, people. If it means moving into a house half as far from work, but half the size, at least consider it. Most folks in the world don’t enjoy the vast square footage that we have here in the US.
Respectfully,
– Will Bain, Missoula, MT (that’s in the Rocky Mountains, by the way, where it snows a lot in winter)
There are many factors going into the high diesel prices. While there may be some illegal effort to keep prices up by the few oil companies, frankly I doubt if there is any direct effort. The prices you see come from many factors and without any direct effort on the part of the oil companies diesel prices are going to continue to be high for some time to come.
For example pushing production of diesel vs gasoline (or the other way around) cost money. Right now there is a higher than normal demand for diesel products so that higher cost is added to diesel. Some unexpected things like ethanol is causing higher diesel prices. To produce ethanol, cost more diesel (farm tractors run on diesel) and with more ethanol being burned in cars, that means less gasoline and less gas means even more pushing the refining process to increase the diesel percentage increasing the price of diesel.
Frankly the cost of producing ethanol adding in fertilizer farming marginal land etc. is likely using more energy in the US (we don’t have good farm land for ethanol) than it produces. But the farmer’s like it and the extra income, so you might be better off boycotting the farmers. Let’s have a no-eating Wednesdays?
BTW I am also a TDI driver and my cost per mile is still less than my gasoline burning friends.
And another thing…
Our government and Big Oil (I won’t comment on whether I think they are connected), have in various forms over the past 50 years or so encouraged the kind of sprawl we have. Whether extremely good scheming to set us up for plunder or poor planning (I’m not sure which) we as a society have been encouraged to sprawl. Freeway systems, automobiles and REASONABLY affordable fuel have encouraged us to take advantage of more house for the money by sprawling away from the cities and taking the commuter trade off, while still encouraging the cities to retain all of the business and work opportunities. We cannot afford to sell our homes and move closer to work, due to the prices driving the market down on our homes. We cannot find work closer to home as it is still for the most part centralized in the urban areas. We are left with no choice but to drive cars, and be held hostage to the pricing that is forced upon us from what is not a competative market, but a single price determined market. This is not free market competition, but fixed pricing by those that have now managed to take advantage of a situation where we no longer have a choice in matters.
And I AM SICK AND TIRED of the comparisons to Europe when trying to rationalize fuel prices.
Things in Europe are generally closer together and they have not developed under the “sprawl” scenario, but rather in conjunction with good public mass transportation from the beginning of the current era of fossil fuel travel.
Being that the government (local, state, and federal for the most part) has encouraged the sprawl, and that even though there are multiple companies the pricing is definatly centralized (e.g. drive through any small to medium sized town and tell me why every gas station has the same price no matter where they get their fuel?) I would suggest that the government address the issue as a monopolistic entity, and treat fuel for what it has truly become and find ways to control it much as a PUBLIC UTILITY! In reality, gas and diesel have become as much of a public necessity as electricity or water, and is no longer an optional purchase for a very large majority of our citizens to function day to day.
As far as selecting a company to boycott? Use some common sense. They are almost all related in a incestuous business. However, some stand out to me as consumer friendly. For example, our local Casey’s chain always holds out for the last minute when a raise is being required. The local store isn’t the one that dictates the price when we are talking convenience stores, but are centralized from a larger entity. Our Casey’s however, pulls the numbers off the board and brings the credit cards readers off line for a little extra time to sell at the lower prices. Then, after everyone has had a chance to fill up on the way home from work will put up the new numbers and bring up the credit card system to process those transactions they’ve been holding on to. They don’t do this often enough to get into trouble, but I’ve seen it 2 or 3 times when a big jump is in store. Also, when a Big Oil entity is to be identified for boycott, we must take into account all of the convenience chains they provide for. In general, I would suggest to be effective it doesn’t too much matter which one is selected. Just keep in mind because of the location issues some people have no choice as to which one to use.
Wilbert; you are right about the split between gasoline and diesel and other fuels refined from a barrel of crude. That holds true in the short term. By introducing various processes, we can actually get different mix of products; either more gasoline, more jet fuel, or more diesel.
US refineries are now going through the process of rebuilding their refineries to accept more heavy crude oil feedstock from Canada and abroad, as well as designing for more ULSD production. Until that time, as you point out, diesel will be in demand, and command a higher price.
Canada has has ULSD since October of 2006, and you can buy various diesel cars there. The fuel price is very close to regular gas.
And I AM SICK AND TIRED of whining about fuel prices. If you don’t like it sell you car and move someplace with public transportation. All U.S. energy prices are still ridiculously low and are finally beginning to catch up with reality, get used to it.
I still drove 60 miles round trip to work every day and do at least one hundred mile round trip every weekend. I car pool when I can but mainly cut back on dining out and alcohol purchases to make up for the increased fuel costs.
I’m driving about 1000 miles from CO to CA over the weekend, so I’ll be spending about $200 on fuel (still the cheapest part of the trip).
Maybe if everyone gives up dining out and alcohol the health savings will pay for the energy. (-;
Everyone wins!