COUGAR: THANKS for the response! The starter/solenoid was new 12/11/08 and worked fine for 5-6 weeks. With the solenoid/starter wired, but NO minor circuit feeds from the solenoid post, I get 0volts between the disconnected negative post of the battery and the alternator frame. With the solenoid/starter and the alternator removed from the truck, I get +9.5v at the alternator frame by connecting battery +cable to either small-wire +connector.
With the remote starter button connected to the “S” post on the solenoid [and +connected to the battery cable, the starter would engage and turn the engine rapidly. I ADDED the single-wire connector to the the +solenoid post and the ignition swithch to the “S” post and the key ignition did nothing. [This is for A/C only?] I removed the single-wire connector and connected the two-wire connector to the +post and the key ignition started the car engine running. The dash voltmeter read only 10.5+ volts, so the starter MAY not have disengaged, making the starter act as a “generator” in the wrong direction.
In desperation for food and booze, drove to one place and left it running. AOK. Dash voltmeter was readin 10.5v+, below usual 12-13v+. Drove to second stop and left it running, returned 20 minutes later to find steam coming out of radiator, engine still running. [Shame on me! A mechanic had told me that the hydraulic cooling fan was bad and “coasting” and I had bought a new one, but had not installed it! Duh-uh! New rad&labor will cost me $241.] Let it cool down, added water from Ace Hardware, and limped home with the blown radiator. Rechecked negative battery post-to-alternator frame = +9.5v.
For another pair of hands and eyes, son will be home tomorrow, will try your test. THANKS for the idea!!! I suspect that the +9.5v in the wrong direction is keeping the solenoid from withdrawing the starter gear from the ring gear/flywheel. Will verify in the AM, guage the gap, and perhaps add a shim and retest.
Driving on the street today, somebody pulled along side and wanted to buy it. He lost interest at $50,000, leaking radiator and +9.5v at ground included. To me, the dang truck is only worth $49,900, but I’d hate m’self if I didn’t make a profit!
Well after reading your last post now it sounds to me that the starter solenoid isn’t disengaging while the ignition switch is in the RUN position. When the starter is running the battery voltage will normally drop to around 10 volts due to the high current load. The problem may be the ignition switch. Disconnect the solenoid lead and check to see if voltage is getting to the solenoid lead while the ignition switch is in the ON or RUN position. If it is then the ignition switch is bad. You may also have to replace the starter if that is the case.
Again, the voltage test you are doing by seperating the battery ground doesn’t really mean much. You just know that some sort of load is tied to the power and ground. From the reading you got it also means it is a fairly high resistance since you aren’t getting the full battery voltage. You are just creating a series circuit between the load and your meter. What you should do is measure the current draw set up that way. This would give you a better result but I don’t think it has anything to do with your real problem. You need to realize that when you disconnect the negative battery cable and place your voltmeter probes between it and the negative battery post then the car chassis ISN’T ground anymore, it is now above ground reference which should be the negative battery post. The meter’s internal resistance is seperating the two points so it really dosen’t mean much and any readings you make are not relative to others you make with the ground connected properly.
COUGAR: THANKS for the additional thoughts! I’ll first check to see if starter gear is engaged to ring gear. Disengage, if so. Remove solenoid lead from ignition switch, put key in “Run” only, and start with remote start button. If it sticks again, that’ll eliminate the key switch and I’ll go shimming.
Maybe, you aren’t measuring the voltage incorrectly (the jury is still out on that). Maybe, the alternator has, and is, regulating voltage output to the electrical system, and to the battery, at 10 1/2 volts.
The three small red wires, each, has a fusible link. Two of the (fusible linked) small red wires go to “power distribution”.
One small (fusible linked) red wire goes to the alternator “Field”. The alternator uses the voltage it sees on this wire to decide what voltage to output on the brown wire, and to the battery positive battery post (via the big black/red wire).
The brown wire, from the alternator, goes through the charge indicator, and to “power distribution”.
You’re wondering, "Why should the alternator output only 10 1/2 volts? Good question! Maybe, the alternator is just wrong. Could happen. Or, maybe, its a sensing problem (the alternator’s, not yours).
The alternator will output about one to two volts higher than what it sees at the red “Field” wire. If it sees 9 volts, it will output 10 to 11 volts. It might see this low voltage, on the “field” terminal, if the connections of the little red wire at the alternator terminal, or at the starter solenoid stud, have resistance (ohms) which drops the field voltage it actually sees.
That is the way I understand it going from the OP statements Oldschool. He would remove the negative battery lead and place the voltmeter between the negative post and the cable end. He said he didn’t know how to make a current test and damaged a meter trying to make a test.
Check out the OP post dated 4/10 9:51AM on the second page. Also check out the later post at 11:18AM.
Actually the jury is in Hellokit and he is making voltage measurements the wrong way. See my added post above yours for reference.
It seems to me that the problem he is having is being caused by the ignition switch keeping the starter running while in the RUN mode. As you know Hellokit, this will keep a high current load on the battery and cause the voltage to go low and be at the voltage he is seeing. At least as long as the battery holds up.
The real clincher post I think is the one at 4/10 1:45PM, here he disconnected the solenoid lead and did a remote start. When he did that the problem was cleared and the starter worked normally though the engine didn’t fire because power to the accessories was disabled.
It may be easier to remove the solenoid wire at the solenoid than the ignition switch. Just be sure to isolate it if you do it at the solenoid as I think it will be still hot in the RUN mode. Either way, remove the wire and do the remote start with the ignition ON and see what happens. I suspect the problem will be gone.
Take this with a grain of salt. I repaired electronics equipment in service and a lot of my own things in years since. My 2 cents. First, if you measure 0 between negative battery terminal and starter motor but 9.5 between negative battery terminal and ground of alternator the starter motor and the alternator can’t have the same ground. Could the alternator not be grounded? Second, the battery cannot instantly discharge or I think you would have the police looking for the explosion. Just a quick short across the battery with a screwdriver will get your attention. A short can make the voltmeter immediately drop to 0 and the battery will start to quickly discharge. Remove the short and you see the voltmeter jump back up to the charge left in the battery, 8 volts or whatever. With a short there is no voltage drop (such as across a resistor) for the volt meter to measure. I agree with the short but not much help otherwise. I submitted a similar post today.
I don’t know if the solution has been found, or not. He said that the dash charge gauge showed 10 1/2 volts during his beer run. If the starter motor, itself, were carrying that much current, it would burn out pretty soon.
Where are the two negative battery cables connected to ground? On the inner fender well? If so, there could be a bonding (grounding) problem between the car body and the engine block (alternator frame). The grounding strap(s) could have resistance, causing a voltage drop between the car body and the engine block.
Rust is a bad conductor. Find the ground straps, and clean (sandpaper, etc.). If you knew how to do a voltage drop test, the grounding point(s) could be quickly confirmed; but, say lah vee.
THANKS to all posting since my last post. Remembering that my radiator is now blown, did the following:
Inspected and found that the starter gear had retracted and NOT engaged with ring gear, as I expected. With a starter button wired in parallel with the key ignition, both going to “S” post on solenoid:
Key alone ran starter and engine ran. Started gear verified as retracted.
With button alone and key off, starter ran and turned engine over, and starter gear retracted.
With button alone and key only turned to “Run”, starter ran and engine ran, and starter retracted.
On all tests, dash voltmeter read only 11-12 volts. When engine ran, it read 12v, less than the 13+ usual. Same 12v- across battery with engine running, ditto with engine off and negative battery terminal removed.
As I have the single wire off the solenoid +post, this may be the alternator field which is lowering the output voltage and allowing the battery to drain when used. May test alternator output in the AM before I drive it two miles to shop for replacement of radiator and fan clutch. Yea, will refill coolant system before driving iPerhaps it is the alternator field wire that is causing the reverse voltage, confusing the internal switches of the solenoid/starter, causing the previous instantaneous battery drains and keeping the solenoid from disengaging the starter gear??? Perhaps I should pull the alternator and inspect that multi-wire plug???
It sounds like the previous trouble is now gone. I still think the starter was operating while the ignition was in the RUN position and the trouble may be intermittent so be on the watch for that. It may come back to haunt you.
Now it appears the alternator isn’t working like it should be. This may be due to the high currents that were being drawn earlier but who knows. If the alternator design is like a lot of them then there will be a couple of wires on the back side of it and they should have voltages on them that are close to the battery voltage. If they do and the voltage output is still low then the alternator is bad.
I’m not convinced that your voltmeter is accurate; nor, your dash gauge. You should get a decent multimeter for about $25. The voltmeters that have hands are inaccurate and difficult to read 10v to 12v area. So, go digital (multimeter).
You think the starter drive gear is dis-engaging the engine gear after the engine starts. I think that one would be able to hear a starter which stayed engaged to the engine while the engine ran.
You can check if the purple wire, to the S post, stays energized after the ignition switch has been turned to START, in this way: disconnect the purple wire; attach red voltmeter test lead to the purple wire, and attach the black test lead to the engine block; turn, and hold the key to START. The voltmeter should indicate voltage. Release the key. The voltage should fall to zero volts. Do that again, and again. If the voltage doesn’t always go to zero, when the ignition key is released (to RUN), there is a problem with the ignition switch.
The alternator field sensing wire doesn’t have those capabilities you postulated. It only tells the alternator what the battery voltage is — nothing more. The alternator uses that intel (ain’t I modern?) to set the charge voltage.
You can test the little red field sensing wire. With the engine NOT running, disconnect the little red wire from the alternator. Place voltmeter red test probe to the wire, and place the black test probe to ground (or, battery negative post). Read voltage. Is it the same as the battery voltage? It should be.
I re-re-re-re-read your last two posts, and it’s still unclear what you are doing with the wires which attach to the two posts on the starter solenoid. Which wire(s) is(are) attached to which post? Please, don’t answer that.
Connect only the purple wire to the solenoid S post, only. Period. Connect the three small red wires, and the battery cable [all four (4) wire terminals, together), to the large post on the alternator. Period. Use a jumper car to charge the battery to 12 1/2 to 12 3/4 volts. Let the car sit a few minuets and check the battery voltage. Check the jumper-car battery, for comparison. Results?
Hello, HELLOKIT. Is there an echo in the Internet? Remember that I have one red wire disconnected from the solenoid +post (the alternator field?). The starter gear was NOT engaged after the booze&groceries run.
The big ground cable from the -post of battery goes to the alternator frame, a small one to the inner fender of the body. Both were not corroded or rusted, but cleaned and insured tight connections anyway.
A couple of months ago, my son inspected the grounding strap and said it was OK. Guess I’ll have to find it and recheck, with voltage check.
Since I have STOPPED instantly draining a fresh battery, here is the wiring:
battery to big, +post on solenoid;
connector with TWO, small, red wires to big, +post on slenoid, with + battery cable.
connector with one small, red wire DISCONNECTED - this is the +feed to the alternator field??? This MAY be reducing output of alternator;
Small, purple wire from key ignition connected to the “S” [Start?] post on the solenoid.
There are NO wire posts on that end of the starter, only the ground bolt on the other end.
Questions anyone?
You ask me to hook up that 3rd small, red wire. That is the normal wiring set-up, but that drains a fresh battery instantly. I ain’t gonna do that. Period. But, if I did, I could THEN jumper it from another running car and mine would start immediately. Unfortunately, my other running car has gone back to college.
You stated that when you add the disconnected red wire to the battery connection it drains the battery voltage instantly. Well something doesn’t seem right with that statement to me. In order for what you say to happen this would mean there is a severe short to ground that has no protection on it. A short that bad would cause more current to flow than even the starter needs to run. The little red wire would instantly turn to a crispy critter trying to support that much current flow. Please believe what I say here even if you don’t right now or it doesn’t make sense to you. The only other explination for a battery to instantly lose voltage like that would be to have a bad battery. It can’t support a load. You were able to start the vehicle with it though so that idea is out.
The red wire you have disconnected may very well be needed by the alternator and other things to run. Reading Hellokit’s reply confirms that. If you think the alternator is a problem then disconnect the connector on the rear of it and it will be disabled. I suggest you have a shop check out the charging system doing a load test. The alternator seems like it is damaged to me going from the low voltages you said it was producing.
Edit:
After looking at the diagram that Hellokit gave a link to, it shows that the red wire you talk about is the one going to the alternator for the regulator circuit inside the alternator. You can take a resistance reading between the two ends of the wires to confirm that. If the resistance is near zero ohms then you have found the other end and from the drawing it goes no place else.
Cougar,
I prefer the wiring diagram I got from alldata.com. It agrees more with what igutie has described. According to the alldata.com diagram, the three small red wires connect directly to the solenoid post. Each small red wire has a fusible link. They are all the same size, so one can’t tell where each goes just by looking at it. The only way to confirm, without tearing the wire bundle apart, where the unconnected small red wire goes, is to disconnect the small red wire from the alternator, disconnect the small red wires from the solenoid, and connect the multimeter to each end (at the solenoid and at the alternator) and check for continuity (ohms).
I haven’t experimented with the results of disconnecting the alternator field wire on my car, and checking the output voltage. Maybe, tomorrow.
Igutie,
Alternators can have internal short circuits; but, as far as I’ve heard, the short STAYED ----it didn’t depend upon the field circuit being powered. Your alternator might have this type of short. I don’t know. Do you have another alternator to try out the theory? One where you would connect the field wire to and, hopefully, get normal 14 volt output?
OLDSCHOOL: I can’t either! Each helpful poster has some unconscious assumption that leads them - sometimes - astray, or/and they have not read or did read my posts, but misunderstood them. But don’t feel badly - the experts at Summit Racing, 4 @ Powermaster/Chicago, several car restorers, one local auto electric shop, several AutoZone employees and customers, and J.C Higgins can’t figure it out either!!!
Remember that I have one red wire disconnected from the solenoid +post (the alternator field?). The starter gear was NOT engaged after the booze&groceries run.