im not sure, ill have to see. reason i havent given my full effort to settle it with the dealer is because i have never seen anybody go the extra mile to try and screw me over like he has. ive read online cases where people have won due to small undisclosed information. in my case, my car was totalled and someone severly inujured in it, not to mention the cheap workmanship put my life in danger. but i guess i wont know untill i have that consultation, i hear juries and judges dont look too kindly on fraudulent dealers.
OP, does the title say “rebuilt”, “salvage”, “reconstructed”, etc.?
Dartman, my point is that maybe the original owner thinks it was a total, but the insurance company, the dealer, and the shop who repaired it may not think so. A sloppy job can be done on a major repair, not necessarily a total?
It seems to me that intent would have to be proven and if the title is clean, along with neither the original owner or insurance company complying with state law about the title branding then how would the dealer know it was a total?
The dealer could look at it as a vehicle that needs some serious work, but is not necessarily a total.
One would think a dealer or insurance company would not jeoparize their reputation, and licensing, by perpetuating fraud over one lousy car sale.
Just wonderin’. (what a deal to be involved in)
Dartman, my point is that maybe the original owner thinks it was a total, but the insurance company, the dealer, and the shop who repaired it may not think so. A sloppy job can be done on a major repair, not necessarily a total?
Laws differ from state to state. In many states if a vehicle has a rebuilt/salvage title then it MUST be disclosed to the prospective buyers before hand. It is the dealers responsibility to do so. If not the dealer is criminally liable for selling a car WITHOUT INFORMING the buyer.
It doesn’t appear to be sinking in, you won’t be compensated for fear of what could have happened. You’re giving part of what could be complete compensation for your expenses to an attorney that can only sue for REAL damages. Complete waste of time and money unless the dealer refuses to compensate you. Get a refund for all your expenses from the dealer and then visit the States Attorneys General office or the legal authorities in your state to seek any punishment you wish to exact for fraudulent representation.
The more I think about this and the more I read MA law the more I want to point my finger at the previous owner.
- If the vehicle was in fact totaled and auctioned off by the insurance company as the previous owner stated to the OP the insurance company would have followed the law. What are they going to gain by violating the law? The law states that if a vehicle is paid of by the insurance company and the owner doesn’t keep the salvage the title is given to the insurance company who sends it to the state. The state then sends the insurance company a salvage title. In order to get a new title the vehicle must be repaired and inspected by the state of MA. At the inspection reciepts for all repairs must be presented. After a passed inspection you can take the salvage title to the state together with the inspection report and fees to get a new title issued. Note* this title would be NEW it would not have any previous owner signature.
- If the owner retains the salvage he is required to surrender the title to the state and apply for a salvage title. The insurance company is also required to notify the state of MA. The requirment is designed so that the state has a record of the salvage in case the owner doesn’t notify them. If this theory occured the previous owner could have had the vehicle repaired, traded/sold it to the dealer and may or may not have mentioned the damage or extent of damage. In this way the owner who had the original title could sign it of to the dealership which would explain why the dealer has a title and it is not branded. If this is the case when the dealer applies for a title for the OP it should come back branded as the insurance company would have notified the state of MA.
- There is also the possibility that there was never an insurance company involved! I think this is the most likely theory. If the previous owner wrecked the car (drunk, stupid, etc.) and didn’t want to report it to his insurance company (no license, drunk, no insurance) the state would not know the vehicle was “toatled”. The previous owner could have had the car repaired at a local shop that does not report to carfax. This would explain why the carfax came back clear. The previous owner could have then traded/sold it to the dealer without mentioning the damage or the extent of the damage. The previous owner would sign the clear title off to the dealership and there would be no record that the collision really ever happened.
These may appear to be off the wall theories but I can not understand why a dealership or insurance company would stick there neck out for a few thousand dollars. I can and have seen members of the general public try to make money in ways that are not truly honest. I would contact the previous owner again and tell him your attorney would like to see copies of the insurance pay-off, accident report, and any other information regarding the damage to the vehicle. If my guess is correct he will stop speaking to you about the matter. At this point I think the previous owner is the one at fault not the dealership.
~Michael
OK4450:
I agree with you 100% about the extent of the damage. My reading of the law is that if an insurance company pays off the car it is a “TOTAL” meaning the insurance company will write off the payment as a total loss. I have seen cars that had no damage that were totaled. This can and does happen on recovered thefts. I noticed in my reading of MA law that they have a branded title specifically for thefts that are recovered with no damage. I currently own a pick up that has a “salvage title”. I purchased it at an insurance auction for $200.00 replaced the front headlights and the grill. This was 12 years ago and the truck is still running great with 90,000 miles on it.
~Michael
My point is that I have seen nothing yet as to whether the title states salvage or something to that affect on it.
If the dealer is issued a clean title from the DMV or Tax Commission (whoever in MA does that) then it could be argued the dealer did not know it was salvage. If the dealer saw this vehicle before repair then maybe the dealer’s “opinion” was that it was not a total wreck at all.
About 15 years ago my sister-in-law was involved in a wreck in her low miles Z-28. Smacked the front end up (not too bad) but the insurance company totalled the car and paid her off.
The car sold at auction to a dealer, was repaired, sold again, and eventually traded in at another car lot somewhere.
A year+ had gone by in all of this and my SIL happened to meet the current owner of her old car.
The car did not have a salvage title and if anyone in the past process on this car looked at it the way I did they would also not consider the car a total by looking at the damage.
I’m also not convinced the original owner is being completely forthright.
anyways, after consulting my attorney he advised me to just make the dealership buy the car back. does anyone know how i would go about canceling the loan or paying them off so i dont end up taking a loss? i just want to be financially where i was b4 the car
You CAN’T just cancel a loan. Who is the vehilce financed with???
Find out how much you owe…And how much you’ve put into the car so far (include all payments, downpayment, and expenses). Take that to the dealer and tell them to take the car and give you that amount to pay off the loan and cover all your expenses.
Ok, now your attorney says to just “make” the dealer buy the car back. The only way to do that is probably with a court fight and the attorney has obviously stated you will need to put up a large retainer and any results may be questionable at best.
As Mike mentions, you cannot “cancel” a loan. No way, you’re on the hook for it once you sign the papers.
Now that we know you have a note on it, the point could be made that your lender had no problem with laying out their money to purchase this vehicle. Yet another entity in the loop who has no indication of a totalled car.
im sorry i paraphrased quite a bit, he said he would file a consumer protection triple damages form if i get some more information from the previous owners insurance which i cannot find who insured him, anybody?
but after that he said i would have to pay the loan off myself which will prolly help my credit, right?
good point about the lender not knowing either, someone is lying. either the previous owner or the dealer… just to find out who. the dmv doesnt hold records of past owners insurance and to find out who their insured to know is a privacy issue. division of insurance in mass doesnt have that info and the titles dont show that either, the only way to find out i guess is thru the previous owner who isnt returning my calls at all… any ideaS?
No ideas at all at this point. Now you know why the laws, in every state and in every area, are written with a lot of gray areas.
The state bar association pushes it this way to keep the lawyers busy. BMWs and country club fees can add up and someone has to pay for it. Ever priced a set of titanium golf clubs? 
Once you get into a lawsuit then that means legal bills for interrogations (or depositions as they’re called) in an attempt at discovery. Sometimes in a civil matter a private detective is needed and these aren’t cheap either, although I think there is a computer program these guys use in which they can trace info like this.
It can get pretty convoluted, expensive, and the little guy usually comes up short.
About all I could recommend, short of running up a legal bill, is to try and accomplish something through the state Attorney General’s office.
It seems to me that since state laws are in place it is their responsibility to investigate and enforce any that might have been broken.
The AG would be the next step if I were in your shoes and don’t take no for an answer if they try to brush you off. Be polite but firm and maybe in “insinuation” of news media coverage might help if they balk.
Privacy issues might apply to you but the AG should get a pass on this and a legal look at it.
Paying off the loan would help your credit but if any payments have been late those marks will remain on record for about 6 years or so. Good luck and keep us informed.
hmmm just a thought, after registering my car with hyundaiusa.com i found an interesting piece of info: the dealership from which my car was originally purchased from. the dealership is in newton, ma. carfax shows the car being registered to the guy who lives in everett, ma and then shows it pass inspection in newton, ma. leading me to believe that the dealership took car of all the paperwork including registration, sound bought right? if so do u think i could probably ask them in their records what insurance company the car was registered with?
It’s very doubtful the dealer who sold the car knows which insurance company was involved unless the buyer also got their insurance through the dealer. Most people don’t go this route, but it is possible anyway.
It’s also very doubtful that the dealer would provide this info since it could be taken as digging into someone’s private financial affairs.
However, it sure won’t hurt to ask. The most they can do is say no.
Maybe your own insurance agent would be able to dig into this a bit. I would think they all have a database to access this info? It would seem to me that an agent could simply poke in the VIN number of the vehicle and get a history of previous insurers. I’m just guessing though since I do not know how things work up there.
ok so hears the deal, the previous owner contacted me shortly after the dealership called me to tell me what insurance company the car was registered with. so yes they can get that info but only the exact dealership that sold it. anyways the guy faxed me over a bunch of info, closing of registration, returning of plates and excise tax bill as well as reciept of junk yard accepting that car as a “salvage car”. vin number model and date were included on reciept. my lawyer wants to file a triple damages thing, but i just found out this info late friday and he was closed this weekend so i want to know if anyone can tell me what my damages are, meaning: total cost of car that im financing on? like 12 grand or however much ive paid to the car plus downpayent trade. basically what i mean is should i expect like 6 grand or 36 grand.
also after the damages how would i go about “canceling the loan” aka paying it off. dealership square that away? or do they pay me + damages to pay the loan? and what do i have to do with the car as far as returning it to whomever?
Again, I’m no lawyer (praise be) but I take that triple damages part as meaning the total amount expended on the car which would include the trade-in.
This is still murky to me, but I read in the info referenced by Dartman that it is possible to have a MA title that is new and unbranded on a car that has been totalled out, AFTER a repair has been performed and the vehicle inspected.
Read carefully Dartman’s long post of 10/17 on this issue.
There are details behind this original crash and repair that neither you or any of us know about at this point.
Until this is settled, you will have to make those payments or get your credit report dinged though.
I sympathize with you on this, but I’m not entirely convinced you can win this case because I read things in the law that may give them an out.
Of course the attorney is optimistic; they always are. (Yep, we got 'em. Just turn the thumbscrews on them and they’ll pay.) They get paid up front and being negative about a case is not a good way to get that retainer.
lol true in a way. my attorney has no retainer and i dont pay till the end, even then hes says hes gonna request attorney fees with the triple damages form. from wat i asked him he said triple the amount of my damages, just need to find out wat the hell my damages account for. pretty much told me in massachusetts if ive been frauded then im entitled to 3 times my damages. only downside to my attorney is i have to do all the investigation work myself.
anyways, he noted i needed to prove the car was infact salvaged, which the receipt stating the car was being bought as a salvage car is good for. i called the junk yard and they said they sold the car unfixed, but not to the dealership i bought it from, i didnt say the dealers name tho. only thing that caught my attention is i told him i bought the car yatta yatta to find out it was salvaged. he told me it wasnt, i said the receipt said it was salvaged and he insisted it wasnt… interesting…
The attorney working on a contingency plan is a plus anyway.
About all I can suggest is wait until the info comes in about the original selling dealer and which insurance company is involved.
Dartman’s post makes reference to a new title (a clean one) being issued after a repair and then inspection by the state of MA.
If this were the case, surely the state has a record of this. One would assume the DMV would be the agency behind the inspection.
Keep us informed.
The DMV never knew. the previous owner told me he didnt have collision so they never paid him for his car and took it. so what did was bring it to a junk yard as a salvage car and got like 1800 bucks. in that way the title always remained clean and reinspection was needed cuz in the eyes of the rmv, and carfax the car was never damaged: no claim for repair or complete loss.
As I mentioned in a previous post:
- There is also the possibility that there was never an insurance company involved! I think this is the most likely theory. If the previous owner wrecked the car (drunk, stupid, etc.) and didn’t want to report it to his insurance company (no license, drunk, no insurance) the state would not know the vehicle was “toatled”. The previous owner could have had the car repaired at a local shop that does not report to carfax. This would explain why the carfax came back clear. The previous owner could have then traded/sold it to the dealer without mentioning the damage or the extent of the damage. The previous owner would sign the clear title off to the dealership and there would be no record that the collision really ever happened.
Just substitute salvage yard for dealer. The salvage yard then sold it as a builder with a clear title. This purchaser repaired the car and sold it to the dealer. I think the dealer was unaware of how badly this vehicle was damaged. They may well give you your money back to avoid bad press. I think you will have a hard time proving the dealer new the car was a total.
You may well have a case against the previous owner as well. Under MA law he is required to notify MA DMV if the car is totaled and there is no insurance. This case would be hard to prove as well. As OK4450 mentioned on multiple occasions “TOTALED” is subjective. Just because one person feels it is totaled doesn’t mean someone else will feel that way. I think your best bet is to convince the dealer to return your money to avoid bad publicity and count yourself lucky.
~Michael