'74 Dodge V8 360 Engine dying at idle

Maintenance/Repairs
41

I did not rotate the engine with the distributor removed. I swear it’s in the general area it was before, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it did turn a bit, maybe. What might happen if I turn the shaft 180 degrees, but how it is right now is correct? What’s the worst that could happen? Could there be an explosion or something, lol. I’m afraid to try that, but I need some reassurance that it’ll be safe.

I think I might just need to find that relative sweet spot margin between too advanced and too retarded?

42

If the distributor is installed 180 degrees off it will pop and back fire through the carb.

If you want to be sure remove the #1 spark plug, hold your thumb over the spark plug hole and tap the starter over a quart turn at a time. When you feel compression stop and turn the crank clockwise with a 1 1/4" socket on the front of the crank until the timing mark in lined up. This will be top dead center.

43

The beast lives.

Oh, this is what I live for. This is my favorite part about it all. Even though the pain and heartbreak and anguish is so terrible, it makes victory that much more sweeter. How can a man truly understand freedom until he has experienced slavery? And how can the prosperous know gratitude like a poor man who does not have a place to rest his head? Or something like that, you know what I mean. But anyway,

The behemoth roars once again. Oh that monstrous V8. I’m a 3 cylinder kind of guy if you couldn’t already tell, heh. You know some cars have 5 cylinders? There’s something so wrong about that. Oh man, there is nothing like the sound… that sound. Crank after crank after crank of false hope and bitter disappointment. Finally, a little sputter, a little muttering, a giant awaking from his long, long slumber. He wipes his eyes, yawns, takes in some fuel and air, and finally,

spark.

BOOM! Fire! Hope! Joy! Culminating like morning embers, dying in the early cold, reigniting like lost lovers who happen to meet again out of nowhere. I have a story about that, about bumping into a girl out of nowhere. There’s nothing like that. That surprise, and all of those feelings awaking again in your soul. Seeing her face. When all was put back together, I went to crank it, and the battery was low. Oh it just added to the suspense, and I live for that. Ran in my other car to get jumper cables, and it roared. Oh it roared back alive.

So yeah it was the distributor and I’m an idiot. A total idiot really. A friend helped me out here. Well more he completely saved my behind here. Absolute lifesaver and I love him for it. He looked at the timing marks and tapped the starter until they lined up and basically, that was the whole thing. I’m an idiot and I did nothing. You guys were right on the money. I definitely needed to tighten up those intake manifold bolts too, because before it would spit out of the gasket edges, but after tightening, it spat out of the carburetor. And I might as well confess this shameful detail. I lined the edge of the intake with RTV for a little added insurance. Probably unnecessary though. I don’t see what’s wrong with that but I guess that’s like sealing around your drain plug instead of replacing your impossible to find or ridiculously expensive OEM stripped oil pan or something. There are thread repair methods and other things of course. Gluing things is a band aid, but hey, if it works, it ain’t stupid, maybe. I mean there was a fuel pump that was giving off EVAP codes, leaking, and replacing the o-ring did nothing. So what did we do? Glued it. And guess what? Fixed the leak. No more EVAP codes, and the car could pass smog. I guess there really isn’t anything wrong with that, as long as it’s done alright.

I thank you gentlemen. It was no doubt the distributor. And you know what’s weird? The RV doesn’t die in idle or when I put it into gear like before. Maybe it only died when it was fully warmed up, or there’s hard starting when warm, I’m not sure. I only drove it for about five minutes. But the choke seems to be acting differently. I don’t know, I’ll check back. But it seems to idle better and smoother and all that. Just smooth and clean. Sounds different. Maybe that’s just in my head.

Ah, so that’s that. I’m so happy.

44

Edit … Didn’t see your post above @MFarmer when I posted the content below. Good on you for getting the beast going again. Sound like it is running like a top. It does make one feel good to solve a perplexing problem. And with cars, there’s plenty of those to be found!

Prior post …
In a 4 cycle engine, there are actually two situtations for the no 1 cylinder to be at TDC. In both cases, the crank shaft is in the same orientation, the piston for no 1 is at its highest point, but the valves are different. The spark module relies on the distributor to tell which is which. The spark will occur at the top of the exhaust stroke rather than the top of the compression stroke if the distributor is 180 degrees off. I can’t think of a reason anything would get badly damaged, other than flooding due to fuel going in but never being burned during attempted starting, but of course with no spark at the top of the compression stroke, the engine wouldn’t start. Could be an explanation for the fuel symptom you are noting.

45

So I’m back!

It’s still running! the big old thing. But of course, there are issues.

I was having a really hard time getting it to start. Crank after crank, there was nothing. Starter fluid, and nothing. Then I tried turning the distributor clockwise, advancing the timing I believe. Some starter fluid, and then it started. (I probably could have just pressed the gas pedal instead of using starter fluid as well.) Oh man I love that. It roared back to life.

Drove around the neighborhood for five minutes, put my foot on the brake pedal, slowed to a stop, and the engine dies. At idle, the vacuum gauge reading is usually pretty steady, though sometimes the needle fluctuates. I messed with the timing, turning the distributor here and there, trying to get the most in. Hg of vacuum, which was probably around 14-16 in. Hg.

This happened 3 times. Would drive around for 5 minutes, slow to a stop, sometimes it wouldn’t die when I would stop, but then it -would- die. Waited. Advanced the timing. Starter fluid, and it starts up again. Drive around for 5 minutes, brake occasionally without incident, then brake again, and the engine dies. 3 times this happened.

The engine seems to only start when timing is pretty advanced (turned clockwise), but when it runs, to get the highest manifold vacuum possible, I have to retard the timing, probably 1/6 of a turn counter-clockwise from where the engine seems to like the timing to be, in order to start. I hope that isn’t confusing. In other words, I think for the best chance of the engine to start, I have the timing advanced. But once it starts, to get the most vacuum, I have to retard, manually, by turning. I know this shouldn’t be. I have no idea what I’m doing. I’m clueless.

Then a new problem I hadn’t faced before. Sometimes the starter won’t even crank, and there’s this electronic buzzing beeping noise. I felt the nut on the starter, and it was very hot. I think maybe that’s just an over-heating safety thing or something. Waited a few minutes, and it would crank again.

Another thing I did to try and get maximum vacuum, is that there are two idle mixture screws on the 2 back corners of the carburetor. 1 of the screws doesn’t seem to affect vacuum or idle or anything so much really. The other screw, if I screw in too much, the engine will sputter and almost die and vacuum would decrease. I unscrewed it pretty much all the way, and vacuum increased.

The other 2 screws on the throttle or whatever it is, the thing that moves when I hit the gas pedal, are both turned all the way in. When I unscrew the top one, it closes the throttle plate, and the engine wants to die, and vacuum decreases. I just screwed it all the way in, and then vacuum is as good as it gets. I mean if I really wanted high vacuum, like 20 in. Hg, I could tape the choke plate.

I might as well admit this shameful detail. Which goes to show, I have absolutely no business messing with a carburetor, and I should seek help from a professional. And I most likely will, after hearing what you fine folks have to say. I am wondering how much it might cost to have a carburetor and the timing adjusting, if it is just those issues. Most shops charge like $100 an hour. I bet a mechanic looking for side work would charge around $70 or something. Shouldn’t take more than hour to adjust, right?

But here goes - I did do that, lol, and it was shameful and it was horrible. Because what was happening before was that the engine would die whenever I would put it into drive. Just not enough juice - not enough air/fuel/vacuum/timing was off, or something. It would just stall out. But when I would tape the choke plate in a way that vacuum would roar to 21 in. Hg, when I put it into drive, it wouldn’t die, (but the entire engine would violently jerk with the force of an atom bomb into drive!) and I could drive it. But man oh man, with my foot completely off the pedal, I could get upwards of 30 mph, heh. And well, that shouldn’t be. Foot off the pedal, car should go like 5mph, right? Well that piece of tape led to 2 broken motor mounts, and DAYS of agony and pain and an incident with a torch that caught a piece of the RV on fire in which I had to use a fire extinguisher which at least I had the foresight to have next to the torch. Learned a lot of lessons. But anyway, let’s move on and never speak of this again.

In hindsight, I think it was timing all along. I did replace the intake manifold gasket, and maybe there was a leak and maybe replacing this is why the RV can run now without dying when put into gear, but I think it’s the timing. And maybe the stupid stupid carburetor. Never again. It’s sick, because a part of me hates carburetors, but I have had so much fun with this miserable thing, and I love seeing and hearing that carburetor roar. But the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, and logic and reason must bear sway. So never again carburetors! Never again!

TL;DR, in summary - The engine seems to only want to start (maybe, I don’t know, lol) when the timing is advanced, and the best vacuum seems to be when it is retarded from that advanced point, but I know I shouldn’t need to manually adjust timing while driving, lol. Also, the engine is dying after driving for five minutes, when I hit the brake. And occasionally the engine seems like it’s misfiring, or the vacuum gauge needle fluctuates, but then other times with messing with the timing, it runs really smooth with no jerkiness, and the vacuum gauge is really steady. Sometimes it’s at a good strong steady 16 in. Hg, other times closer to 14, I don’t even really know or remember. I’m just confused and clueless. Should I just pay to have a professional look at it, lol. A long time ago, when I knew nothing about cars, I paid a mechanic a hundred dollars to add water to my battery, and then it started. Lol. Anyway, any advice is appreciated, thanks.

46

Update! I just went on another 10 minute run. It seems that after warming up the engine, the vacuum increased to around 20 in. Hg! When I last put it into park, the vacuum was around 20 in Hg, instead of around 15. I think probably because the two screws on the throttle thing is all the was screwed in, and I think they shouldn’t be, giving the car a high idle and thus high vacuum. Does this type of engine need to have 20 in. Hg? Because too much, and when I put it into drive, the engine jerks violently, which a few times too many, could lead to broken motor mounts, as I know all too well, heh.

I did have that electronic buzzing issue where the starter wouldn’t crank, and the nut on the starter solenoid would be very hot. I didn’t have this issue months before though. I just the other day removed the battery, had it charged, and put back in, but I put everything the way it was before. What could be causing this buzzing, and the starter not cranking? I would have to wait a few minutes, then it would crank.

Oh! And I also recorded some video of the vacuum gauge while idling, while driving, and with my foot on the brake in drive. I will upload this soon.

UPDATE: Here’s the video of the vacuum gauge: http://tinypic.com/r/6zanvp/5

47

If there’s a bad electrical connection at the starter, or a discharge battery, what can happen is that when you turn the key to “start”, the starter solenoid contacts will close, which then powers up the starter. But the extra current in the wire from the battery to the starter, along with the bad connection or bad battery, results in a big voltage drop, which then causes the solenoid contacts to re-open. Etc, etc, you end up with a buzz as the solenoid contacts repeatedly open and close. Sometimes you can get this same effect with your turn signals, you don’t quite engage the switch all the way, it makes a poor connection, and you hear a buzzing noise instead of the normal click click click.

48

Genius. That makes a lot of sense. It must’ve had something to do with my removing and then re-installing the battery. The only thing I touched were the connections at the battery terminal, and I didn’t touch the starter. You think it could just be a loose connection at the battery?

(I found out that it buzzes all the time, when the starter cranks and when it doesn’t, with the key in start. It’s just without the sound of the engine turning, I could hear the buzzing more clearly.)

When the starter doesn’t crank, the connection at the starter solenoid gets really hot and the negative battery terminal gets really hot as well. I forget how the positive terminal feels. I’m going to recheck my battery terminal connections and report back. The engine just started up really nice and easily a few minutes ago from a cold start. Gave it half a pump of gas, turned it, and it fired right up. Beautiful. And it seems to run a bit smoother. Maybe sitting for a while had the valves or something sticky, and it just needed to burn through some carbon build up? I found that when I hit the brakes, the vacuum decreases, probably because of the brake booster connected to manifold vacuum right? And then it’s like the vacuum reserve is depleted, and when I give it some gas, the vacuum goes back up, and the vacuum reserve is replenished. Is this correct? Though it doesn’t really matter I guess. Hopefully it’s just a bad connection, and hopefully I don’t need a new starter. But what are the signs that you need a new starter?

49

So like always, I have clearly made something worse.

I tried to repair some wires, and now the engine doesn’t even turn over a little. For a little while, it didn’t even make that buzzing. Went back to the wires, did who knows what, and it’s buzzing again, but usually after a few minutes it’ll crank a few times at least. It didn’t do that.

Is it possible I burnt something out, like the starter motor? Months ago while cranking so much, the wires at the positive battery terminal got so hot, it actually melted some of the insulation. But here it seems the negative terminal is getting much hotter than the positive. I’m going to try to do some proper wire repair tomorrow, cut out the cancer (corrosion and rust), and see how that goes. I’m hopeful, because other than that, it seems to want to start every time, at least from a cold start. I wanted to test how well it starts from a warm start, and then the buzzing kicked in. We’ll see how it goes.

50

Keep in mind that with the timing too far advanced, that the engine will be very difficult to crank and the starter will draw enormous amounts of current trying to do so, which will heat everything up and can melt insulation. The noise you were hearing was probably the starter vibrating as it tried to turn but could not. You may not have had (at least initially) an electrical problem–it may be the timing was just too far advanced. Also, with the timing way advanced, you risk damaging valves, pistons, bearings from preignition. An old bulletproof cast iron V8 like your 360 will be pretty resistant to any punishment you can give it, but if you take the thing on a trip like that, you can damage it.

Have you checked the timing with a timing light when you can get it running? If it has a vacuum advance, this should be disconnected when checking it. Obviously it should run if set to specs. If you want a little more power, you can advance it a bit, then back it off if you start getting spark knock on acceleration. Emissions may suffer. To me it sounds like you have major carburetor problems or a huge vacuum leak somewhere at this point.

51

Thank you! The engine has actually been able to start with the timing more retarded then where I had it before. So my theory that it was only able to start when advanced was wrong.

What’s the thinking on using a timing light versus a vacuum gauge? I’m going to go give the timing light a try. The vacuum advance looks like a bicycle bell with a small hose on the nipple right? And would anyone happen to know the timing spec by chance? I can look it up.

I do think the wires (there’s like 5 of them) at the battery terminal have some corrosion and bad connections and things like that. I am definitely drawing enormous amounts of current though, which would explain the really hot starter and battery terminal. But what would cause that other than advanced timing? Would a loose battery connection cause that? And is there a chance my starter is bad?

52

Set the timing with a timing light before you do anything else. You have to pull the vacuum line off the vacuum advance diaphram on the side of the distributor and plug it and you have the be at idle speed or you will involve the centrifugal advance.
After yiu set the timing and lock down the distributor, rev the engine and you should see the timing advance.

53

Since whatever current goes out the positive battery terminal comes back in the negative terminal, exactly the same number of amps, if the contact resistance were the same, it seems to me they’d get equally hot. But one gets considerably hotter than the other? hmmm … It could be that the battery just dissipates the heat on one side better than the other. But I suspect the connection on the side that gets hotter has some surface oxide coating or oil or grease or something. I have an early 70’s Ford 4x4 302 V8 truck and I have to use one of the $2 cleaning tools to clean the battery posts and connectors once every 6 months or so for this very reason.

A starter motor draws a lot of current, 100 Amps not at all unusual even for econo-box sedans. So even if the contact resistance is 1/100 of an ohm, that would result in a 1 volt drop, and could well be enough to prevent the starter motor from working correctly. And a 1/100 ohm contact resistance with 100 amps flowing through it — doing mental calculations — hmm … ok, that would result in 100 watts of power dissipation at that contact, so it could easily get quite hot after a few minutes of cranking.

It’s also possible a coil in your starter motor is shorted out. The coil – so to make it small so it will fit – is wound from wire painted with a thin layer of insulating paint (or resin). If the wire in the coil gets really hot, it can melt the insulating paint on the wire, and part of the coil gets shorted out. That means there are fewer effective turns, and more current needs to flow to create the same magnetic field. A shop manual for the car would probably tell you what the resistance of the coil is supposed to be. Measuring the starter motor coil resistance, this is something an auto-electric shop could easily do too.

54

IT WAS THE STARTER!

Oh it was the starter, it was always the starter, from the beginning it was the starter. Hours after I fixed it, I was just driving, and the thought hit me, “Oh man, I think he mentioned it needed a starter when I bought the thing.” HALF A YEAR AGO. And I laughed in horrifying anguish, I laughed. Because what can you do but laugh? Otherwise the horrifying realization will hit you that you wasted far too many Sundays and far too many hours on a nightmare that never had to start.

Another notice hit the RV 2 days ago. I’d have until tomorrow morning to move the RV or be hit with a hefty fine that would bankrupt me, lol. It was a hundred dollar fine. The joke here is that I’m poor. Now, that put a fear of poverty in me, and I tried in vain to fix it. All the while I was thinking, “All I did was take out the battery, charge it, and put it back in. It’s gotta be a bad connection!” But for some reason I thought, “Eh, might was well try to hammer the starter with fiery passion.” So I did. And the dang thing cranked. “Huh. Well I wonder what that means.” It didn’t fire up, no no, all that night it did not fire up. But it cranked.

Next day, I bought a starter, in careful, calm hope. Not expecting anything, but hoping against hope. Popped that thing in in less than ten minutes, and then, the first crank, not even a millisecond, not even giving a moment of suspense,

That old beautiful beast fired up like it had never fired up before. When you thought something was dead, and you tried so many things, and you looked in all the wrong places, it was always under your nose. She was always under your nose. She was plain, and overlooked, and so easily forgotten. But she was always there, always so kind, and so pure. What I’m trying to say sweetheart is that you are the starter in my life. And before you I was dead, but now I am alive. This is my poem to you. Now if you want to complain and say, "Hey- this is a poorly crafted poem about your stupid cars that you spend every Sunday on, spending all of your money on projects that you will never finish because you’re a terrible backyard mechanic that has no business even owning a wrench and what in the living world do you mean plain and overlooked and easily forgotten and oh if I could I would have married John from work instead of you, " well all I can say baby is you still look stunning in that dress, and I love you. But this is all a lie of course because I’m alone, I am so so alone. PEACE

55

RESOLVED - I found the cause of the original problem I was having; the dying at idle, roughness, erratic carburetor? responses, etc. The hard starting was just a worn out starter. But all that weird driveability?

IT WAS THE DISTRIBUTOR INITIAL TIMING! Or whatever it’s called when you INSTALL the distributor, not just turn it to advance and retard it. I’m sure this was it. And lucky me I messed up taking out the distributor and not marking it with white out when I was replacing the intake manifold gasket, because it forced me to call in my mechanic friend who installed the distributor for me. Runs BEAUTIFULLY now.

Worst part? Same thing with the starter. I think the owner - oh he did, he did. He mentioned when he sold me the RV that the timing needed to be adjusted. Man I’m an idiot. Lol. Every issue I experienced, the owner warned me beforehand. But he also said I needed a new carburetor, which I don’t, and I thought he was not a professional and just had some guesses. Anyway, CASE CLOSED. I THANK YOU ALL. -